The Talent Forge: Shaping the Future of Training and Development with Jay Johnson

The Art of Adaptability: A Talent Development Journey with Dr. Esther Jackson

• Jay Johnson • Season 1 • Episode 1

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Embark on a transformational journey with Dr. Esther Jackson, a vanguard in the talent development arena, as she shares her remarkable metamorphosis from an aspiring educator to a corporate training virtuoso. In this heart-to-heart, you'll uncover the power of introspection in carving out a career pathway that's both meaningful and exhilarating. Hear how Dr. Jackson turned challenges into triumphs within the constraints of a municipal government setting, crafting innovative in-house training programs that exemplify the profound satisfaction one can derive from teaching in all forms.

Discover the intricacies of the ADDIE model and its monumental impact on adult learning as we dissect the importance of a meticulous Analysis phase to diagnose performance issues accurately. Tune in for an insider's view on designing captivating learning experiences that align with organizational goals and resonate with the learner’s aspirations. The enlightening dialogue reveals how a deep-seated passion for talent development fuels professionals like Dr. Jackson, inspiring those who yearn to make a mark in corporate training.

This episode concludes with a masterclass on adaptability, encapsulating the unpredictable nature of the talent development field, particularly in the throes of a global crisis like COVID-19. As Dr. Jackson imparts her wisdom on preparing for high-stakes C-suite discussions, you'll grasp the indispensable skills needed to align learning initiatives with organizational triumph while navigating the complex currents of talent development.

Bio

Dr. Esther Jackson has a myriad of experiences in leadership, project management, talent development, and DEI. A few of her occupations are Consultant, Facilitator, and College Instructor in the Detroit, MI area. She has presented nationally with the Association for Talent Development, SHRM, BambooHR Summit, and Training Magazine Conference & Expo. Her presentation topics are: adaptability, DEI, emotional intelligence, instructional design/training, and leadership development. Dr. Jackson’s credentials include graduate degrees in education and certifications in adaptability and DEI. Since its publishing a few years ago, her doctoral study on technology preferences of multiple generations in the workplace has received over 1,600 downloads. She published her first book, Adaptability in Talent Development, and it is available on Amazon. 

Connect with Dr. Jackson
Lynnjac Consulting: www.lynnjac.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-esther-jackson-2ab9772b2/
ATD: www.td.org | ATD Conference:  https://atdconference.td.org

Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com

Jay Johnson:

All right listeners. Welcome to the Talent Forge. Today I am joined by an amazing talent development professional, somebody I've known for quite a few years from the Association for Talent Development. She is an author, she is a trainer, she is a designer, she's a speaker. She does all of the above and she does it incredibly well. Welcome to the show, Dr Esther Jackson. Thank you for being here with us today.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

Jay, it is a pleasure and an honor. Thanks for having me, and not sure who you were describing with that intro.

Jay Johnson:

Well, we're going to dig into it, because I have always, always, just been incredibly inspired by the things that you do in the talent development space. Why don't we start with a simple one? How did you get into this space, dr Esther? Because that's actually something I don't even know. How did you find yourself on this pathway?

Dr. Esther Jackson:

Very interesting question. And, as I reflect back, jay, so I do have some experiences in the public sector, private sector, as well as working with nonprofits, thanks to ATD and, funny enough, I went to school to be an elementary school teacher, k through eight. That was my dream. My art Started in college with a focus on accounting because I love math. Then, after one accounting course, that's not the kind of math I wanted to do I jumped over, after some advising, to engineering. Oh, the engineers are paid in full and it's prestigious and all of that, what we've heard only to find that there's a bit too much science with that math and that's not my forte. And I had to ask myself the question that so many of us are asked or have to ask ourselves what is it I gravitate to? What is it if I wasn't being paid, that my heart is there and I do it without that financial benefit, and it was teaching. I love that without that financial benefit, and it was teaching.

Jay Johnson:

I love that.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

So I did that and in the process, ended up getting a job working for the city of Detroit and from there, once I graduated, going through the College of Education and everything, I ended up with a job at the city working in the training division, which at the time was the Organization for Employee Development Services, and we essentially handled training for the city staff. And lo and behold, upon graduating I was asked hey, esther, instead of going into teaching, you're already here in training. Why don't you take a training job? And that launched a different future. I asked myself again other questions, because you know wonderful your class and they go back to work when class is over.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

I think I got my decision back there. And then it helped too, jay, that teaching children that's also a passion of mine and that was something I was able to do and being a head of a children's ministry at my church at the time. So I was still able to get the benefit of both. And so that's essentially how I started in workplace learning or corporate training, and that opened up a whole new world, because when I initially went to undergrad, jay, I had no idea about corporate training, like I'm sure is the case for many teachers.

Jay Johnson:

I heard two things that you know. I study behavioral science. I heard two things you have a lot of heart and a lot of resilience for the people that you're doing, but I mean it's so amazing to hear my career started a little differently, with somebody patting me on the shoulder saying, hey, you're pretty good at this, you should do it. I was like maybe I will. This sounds awesome. What does that mean? So, oh, it's so funny. But you know, as you mentioned, I do think it's kind of interesting.

Jay Johnson:

Accounting was probably my weak point when I started my business and learned from an accountant how weak of a point it was, and have never made that mistake again. So go to the right professionals. They're going to take care of you. So all right. So you started down this road, dr Esther, and I love that. How was it? What was your experience in working with municipal government? You know we got a lot of trainers that are going to be listening, that are, some are going to be in industry, some are going to be freelance, some are going to be consultants. How was that experience in working for a municipality? Was there unique challenges? Was there, you know, opportunities that maybe we wouldn't see in regular? What was that like?

Dr. Esther Jackson:

and some of the red tape involved there.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

I have to say I really appreciate the fact that we weren't always afforded the luxury of being able to outsource so a lot of what we were offering.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

Every Blue Moon we'd have a vendor that we'd leverage, especially when it came to like maybe supervisory training and specialized high-level management training we were looking to do.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

But for the most part I was able to really get my feet wet with not only facilitating, jay, but also doing the development, instructional design from scratch and learning about the basics. So, in addition to me making a decision after undergrad that, hey, I think I want to do this for real, let me take that training gig. I decided to pursue my master's in instructional technology, which is workplace learning, and then in the process, the city where I was working. They also sent me to some additional training to really develop and hone in on my facilitation and instructional design skills. So appreciate that opportunity and that exposed me to being able to, at an early age and early in my career, do diversity training, development from scratch. So I not only have the ability to participate in projects and lead in some instances the training that was designed, but also facilitated as well. So I was able to do that for diversity, sexual harassment, some technical skills, all of the Microsoft Office programs Word, powerpoint.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

Excel as well as things like project management. So in a good place at a good time. Once it was time for me to actually finish up the capstone for my master's, I was able to actually design a whole two-day project management workshop, go through all of the steps within the ADDIE phases and use a focus group from the city to pilot it. Get real-time feedback, incorporate that in my formative evaluation as well as the summative evaluation, go through all of those pieces step-by-step with analysis, design, development, implementation and evaluation, to have that final product with my very first from scratch facilitator's guide, participant manual, my full-blown slide deck for this two-day program. So that was my proudest moment with the incorporation of gamification. So I gamified it as well, jay, with the Jeopardy game. So very proud moment for me some years back as I reflect.

Jay Johnson:

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

You go through those just awesome and covering so many different topics and ended up a little over 30 different topics that I was able to facilitate and I would say over 70% of them were programs that I actually designed.

Jay Johnson:

That is incredible, and there's literally so much to unpack there, so I'm going to start with a low hanging fruit. Some of the people that are listening maybe are not members of the ATD yet. You should be a member of the ATD if you're in this talent development space. It is the absolute creme de la creme of organizations for people like us. But can you just give a quick synopsis of what the ADDIE model is? You mentioned that it's a powerful tool that I use in my practice. Obviously, I know you do too, but what is the ADDIE model? If you could just give a brief one?

Dr. Esther Jackson:

Absolutely so. The ADDIE model is a classic instructional design model that is often used, and it's almost as if you are in the field of talent development and you design instruction in any kind of way for adults. You absolutely need to know about ADDIE. There's no way you should not be Googling or researching somewhere to find out what ADDIE is, and it's something that was originally developed within the military in partnership with I believe it was Florida State University around the year I was born, but we don't need to talk about that year, jay.

Jay Johnson:

Like 25 years ago, I'm sure.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

Good answer, jay. Good answer. So Addy allowed for what they call more of a waterfall type of model where you go in more, so like a linear or flow that allows you to go through steps, design, development, and all of that for almost any topic you want to design and develop for workplace learning when it comes to adults.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

And essentially, it's starting with something that I hold near and dear to seven habits of highly effective people. Habit number two begin with the end in mind. So in that analysis phase you're talking about, what is it that's the end goal? What is it we're trying to solve for? What's the problem here at hand? What's that learning gap? And all of that comes out of the analysis and looking at first answering questions. Do we even have a problem here that can be addressed with a learning solution? And some organizations skip that, miss it and jump to got a performance problem. Training is needed.

Jay Johnson:

Negotiations, training go ready. That's not even and this is this is part of the reason that we started this podcast, because we see stats like 90% of training is ineffective, and I think that you are spot on. A big part of the reason is is because of that little a in the Addy is not adequately analyzed. Are we really solving a problem? Are we looking at the right problem to solve, and is the learning solution, a training or a coaching program, the right solution to get us to that behavioral change?

Dr. Esther Jackson:

You're talking my language, jay, you're talking my language, and one of the programs. So I do several programs for ATD at the national level certificate programs, one of which is managing learning programs and another is instructional design, and so one of the topics that's relevant to both deals with that very question what steps have you taken to ensure that you are developing, as you mentioned, the right solution to the right problem instead of the right solution to the wrong problem, or vice versa? And so one of the things that I sometimes reference is something called Gilbert's six box model, and it takes a look at three aspects of the employee and three aspects of the environment to see, hey, there are six boxes here, six particular areas. One is like the motivation. One is dealing with the materials and things that are afforded to the employee. Another is dealing with training, and then there are three additional areas. Only one of those speaks to training the skills and the knowledge.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

Motivation, you know. Is there any feedback being given to the employee? Well, no wonder they're not doing it. They know the right thing to do and, jay, you are a guru when it comes to facilitating the training. How many times have you heard oh, this sounds well and good, but when I get back to the job I won't be able to apply this or incorporate this back on a job. So then we have that disconnect between hey, they've passed level two of Kirkpatrick's level of evaluation, they can apply what they learned in that learning setting. But for level three to look to see, is that learning transferring back to the job? There's a missing link there. What is it? What happened?

Jay Johnson:

Well, and my favorite is always one of those where it's like oh, we have a revenue problem, let's do sales training, and it's just like is that the actual issue? Do your salespeople not know how to sell? Do they not have tactics? And sure you can bring in a salesperson or somebody that's got strategy or whatever. But have you considered the fact that maybe your salespeople aren't motivated to sell for your company, that they're not looking at this and saying well, I'm making enough money by doing what I'm doing. If I did more, it'd be more work, more paperwork. Have you really examined why you need that training? And it's just such a. It seems so obvious, but it's missed so often, it seems to me.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

That's that analysis. Jay, you really hit it spot on With that analysis. It's so which aspect of the KSA is applicable? Is it a knowledge problem? Is it a skills problem? Is it an attitude problem, where we can look to see how training could address those? But if it's something different and there's not an issue in those areas, then there's no need to go through the rest of ADDIE with OK, let's design whatever the learning solution is. That's that first D in ADDIE.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

So we're talking about doing a blueprint or some type of lesson plan for the teachers out there and we may look to those with respect to adult learning as maybe a design document which is comparable to a lesson plan document which is comparable to a lesson plan where we spell out things like the objective, what's for that particular exercise or segment, as well as looking at what are the activities that best meet fulfilling that objective. How long will it take? Will there be a slide shown? Will it be a lecturette? Are we doing something online with a drag and drop? Is this going to be a role play? So that's something that really excites me and, looking to beginning with my end in mind, what's going to be an interaction and engagement activity that allows for me to best approach this particular objective and mapping that all out.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

What are maybe some authoring tools that may be leveraged, if we're talking about something that may be virtual or completely virtual or not hybrid, you know or tools, the slide deck, the activities, whatever props, whatever handouts, facilitator, guide, participant manuals that go into that. And then implementation. You're talking about doing your piloting, testing things out. Does it work? Is it on track with what we were targeting? And then finally with the evaluation, were targeting and then finally with the evaluation is it doing what we wanted it to do? What do we want it to do? We identified that back in the analysis. If we didn't do a good job of identifying that end in mind, that learning goal, the supporting or the objectives that cascade down from that goal, then we will likely have a problem with the evaluation.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, and so just analysis, design, development, implementation, evaluation. That's the ADDIE model. If you need more information on it, you can definitely find it on the ATD website. Just do that Google search, because there is a ton of really good information out there on Addy and how important it is. You know it was interesting.

Jay Johnson:

When I was introduced to Addy I had been looking at design thinking and that's a big part of the way that I had developed different things, you know prototyping something, implementing it, testing it, getting the feedback, going back, but the empathy stage and all of that.

Jay Johnson:

So you know, have something where you are evaluating the problem.

Jay Johnson:

But I do want to pivot here for one second, and and part of the reason is is because I think that you're incredibly unique in the talent development space.

Jay Johnson:

And when I say unique, one of the things that I see is, a lot of times you have somebody who is very, very much motivated, enthused and excited about facilitation. I do also see, on the other hand, people who are motivated, excited and enthused about designing an experience or managing an experience, but not so much the facilitation side. You don't see as often somebody who is as exceptional at design as they are at facilitation, and I think that you live that day in and day out, so I would like to, you know, share with the audience, if you could. How important is it to you that you both take on that experience of a facilitator and a trainer and an instructor, but also as that person that's in the backside managing and or developing or designing? Because it's not always the same skill set and some people are really predisposed to one or the other and that's okay. But how does that show up for you and your day-to-day work?

Dr. Esther Jackson:

Oh, that's a great question that I've never had before, Jay, I have to tell you. Going back to the so in the work I do, I work in a company in Michigan Rocket Companies in a role that's really dedicated to the DEI space, and then I also have my own business where I assist clients and work with clients who may have needs for instructional design, development, DEI, facilitating a session, working with their leadership on something else. And then I'm also doing some other things to promote my book and doing ATD certificates, and then I try to make time here and there to teach at a couple of universities when do you sleep, Dr Asher?

Jay Johnson:

When do you sleep?

Dr. Esther Jackson:

So one thing that I have to really hone in on, that I'm always working on, especially seeing some of the things that are trending with things now in L&D that are really elevating and escalating in importance, like artificial intelligence, as well as where that impact is, and connecting learning to the bottom line for a business. In order for me to do that, I have to go back to something you mentioned and that I was talking about with beginning with the end in mind what's the end goal? And so from there, once I've identified what the need is, what my end goal is whether it's something I'm doing or it's been initiated from work I'm doing for a client or for an organization or in my day-to-day job once that has been identified with a goal in mind, then I actually revert to things like design thinking, that empathy phase, jay, and look at, hey, putting myself in a learner's place. What is it that's going to maybe be attractive to me? What is it that's going to engage me, provoke my attention and maintain it? What is it that's going to speak to the adult learning principles that we get from andragogy thanks to Malcolm Knowles talking about the ability to connect it to what I need to know now Also, what is this going to? How is this going to help make my life easier and personally or professionally, as well as maybe connecting some of my hierarchy of needs?

Dr. Esther Jackson:

So I go through that kind of processing when it comes to what I'm designing, as well as giving thought to what does this look like when it plays out, based on what's happening now. I can't go back to what I did when I did my two-day project management workshop at Wayne State some years back, because there are different things trending now, jay, so I have to stay current with what's happening now. What's going to speak to that technology piece, the advanced technology we're seeing that's being applied to maintain attention as well as those levels of engagement that we target, along with connecting to the bottom line for a business, so they can see the impact, and I can see impact from whatever it is I'm designing as well as facilitating. So I hope that kind of answers your question.

Jay Johnson:

It does. It speaks to your and I'm just going to this my ham handed, you know, segue into this. It speaks to your adaptability and your ability to essentially bounce from the technology space to the design space. To that I can experience this. What if I was sitting in this audience? Would I be interested in this? Would I be enjoying this? And, ironically enough, adaptability is a pretty big aspect of your world, given that your book title is Adaptability and Talent Development. So there's your, there's your segue, there's your plug. Can you tell us a little bit about your book Adaptability and Talent Development?

Dr. Esther Jackson:

Absolutely, and I really appreciate that question, because one the opportunity to write the book Jay was a result of adaptability. I was working in a private sector and doing some things with ATD and I got that book Jay, that feeling that, hey, I need to be doing something to really put myself out there. And it just so happened I would regularly go through the ATD magazine and it's the TD magazine under ATD and look to see. That was one of the things I would do, in addition to looking at white papers, viewing online articles and things, but trying to stay current with what's trending, what's the greatest of all time, what's the latest and greatest.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

What are organizations doing that are really, you know, making a name for themselves in that space? And so I happened to be reading through one particular issue and saw a name I recognized and I said, oh, my goodness, so-and-so has an article in here. I could have an article. What am I doing? I could have an article. What are you doing? So, jay, we had this thing at the organization where I was working at the time, where we had to do blogs and articles anyway to assist with the marketing in our organization. And so this was not the city, it was another company where I was and it just so happened the article I submitted I did something on adaptability and the marketing leader didn't feel like it quite hit what we were going for.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

So it was rejected and I had to start from scratch. So I put that article to the side, jay, and I felt like, well, you know what I said. I needed to submit an article to ATD anyway. I don't need to throw this away. Let me see if, even though my job doesn't want it, atd sees value in it. So, jay, I submitted the article. They liked it and they said we just need to do a few tweaks. And I'm thinking, oh okay, they're going to rip it apart, but I don't care, it's going to be published. Jay, they made very minor changes to that article, to a point that it scared me. I'm like that's all you're changing. Do you need to get it round, or something?

Jay Johnson:

Are you sure this went through?

Dr. Esther Jackson:

So from there that was the November 2019 issue that my article was published, and it was about today's resilience requires adaptability, and there was something else that I had in the title, but it was essentially about adaptability. And then from there, some months after, I just felt like I needed to do another article and sent them a couple of outlines, and from there I received an email inquiring about hey, we're looking to do a series, want to know if you do a book on adaptability, and blah, blah, blah and Jay I thought it was a hacker, ok, because there was so much going on and I didn't take it seriously. But I responded very nonchalantly and one thing led to another, had a couple of calls and it became real when I received the book contract to write a book. And so I spoke with the editor for the third time and happened to mention you know I can't believe all of this came from me asking you all about a couple of articles and if you'd be interested.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

And it turned out the editor had no idea what I was talking about. He happened to come across my article from November 2019 and thought adaptability would be a good addition to this series and thought adaptability would be a good addition to this series and, jay, absolutely. Maybe. Two or three weeks later I received a response from another department in ATD saying hey, we like this article outline. This is the one we want you to write on. So I happened to start writing the book and had to do the article at the same time, and all of that happened in the heart of COVID.

Jay Johnson:

Wow.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

That's incredible.

Jay Johnson:

Oh my gosh, that is so awesome.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

That's why I absolutely say it was adaptability, because one of the aspects of adaptability is being able to see opportunity in those unexpected conditions or unforeseen change Totally different from change management, where you see the change coming or you're making a change happen and you have to keep on target with it and manage it in the process, but adaptability is out of your control. You didn't see it coming and that's exactly what happened with the things that progressed and the book opportunity coming about for me and thank goodness I didn't throw that article away that was rejected, because that was the catalyst for me.

Jay Johnson:

You know and I'm going to jump on your audience, that is one of the best tips that I think that you can walk away from this podcast with Publish content, whether it's on your own blog, don't throw it away. I have been writing a book for 10 years and I probably thrown away I'm going to say 50 pages worth of content over the years, cause I was just like no, this is, I don't like this, I don't don't do that. Set it aside. Put it aside. I'm reminded of it and it's.

Jay Johnson:

It's a, you know a parable a person who takes the car to go sell the car and you know the first person says, nah, it's not a great car, I'll give you $2,000.

Jay Johnson:

He takes it somewhere else and they say, well, we'll sell it for parts, we'll give you $2,500. Takes it to the third person and says do you realize that this is an antique, that people pay premium dollars for this type of thing and we never know exactly who is going to see the value in something you may only affect 10 people is going to see the value in something you may only affect 10 people, but that's 10 people that you've impacted and one of those people might be that person going that needs to get out to the larger audience. It's such an important thing Publish content, get it out there, add to the knowledge base and just do it and don't throw it away, because that is literally all those things that I did end up throwing away early on. I'm like, oh, why did I do that? They might've been useful. I don't know, maybe not new stuff coming. Let's just put it that way.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

It's in the past now.

Jay Johnson:

We're not going to get stuck, but that's right.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

No, but that's something I absolutely make sure I pass on to other folks, especially when they ask well, esther, you know what advice would you don't? One of the first things I say is what you mentioned, jay don't throw anything away. Even if the editor, you know, or whomever has to sign off, rejects it, turns it away. Even things that I've had, you know, in the course of writing the book, when I was working on it, I still maintained it. Those were things I was able to leverage, even though they didn't go into the book. I was able to use them for a blog or for an article that kind of aligned to the book and thing, and it saved me some time and heartache as well as allowed me to leverage a different perception or a different aspect of a point I was making.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

So when I think about it with the book, to really hone in on what you mentioned about having that published work, one of the things they talk about in the Seven Habits, even in the book Covey mentions, is the importance of leaving a legacy. You know people aren't necessarily going to remember what your title was in the organization, you know. Is that something they will really emphasize in your obituary? But something they will emphasize likely would be like my book and so being able to say that that was a piece of literature that I left behind for the world no, I'm not going to have this title that's left behind. It didn't really touch folks or make impact because I was in this leadership role or I was running my own company or this or that. Maybe that does it for you, but my legacy I want to be able to say that I made true impact, I contributed, and my book, my dissertation those are just a couple of examples where I was able to make that connection that has something that's left behind from me when I'm well and gone.

Jay Johnson:

I have seen you for many years and outside of those publications, you have also left an indelible mark on people that have learned from you, that have worked with you, and I have absolutely no doubt you'll continue to do so.

Jay Johnson:

Dr Oster, I want to go into that adaptability One more piece there, because this is all about shaping that future of talent development, and to do so we have to adapt and we've got to do some things differently.

Jay Johnson:

That's why I got into this space many years ago is because I realized, hey, I'm noticing something that's occurring at the end of my trainings or at the end of my facilitations. That's not occurring with some of the other people that I was working with, and I started to really try to study that. And one of the things that I noticed was in the middle of a facilitation I was able to see where the things were going, take a look at the audience, see how this was reacting and completely pivot right there in the middle of the facilitation and go, okay, this is not going in the direction I need it to, or this is going so much better in a direction that I didn't anticipate. I need to spend more time here and being able to be adaptable, not just as we're designing, but also within that framework of facilitation. Can you speak to that, how that adaptability really plays for you as you're delivering knowledge or as you're delivering, like sort of, in that classroom? How do you use your adaptability skills to really elevate the experience for your participants?

Dr. Esther Jackson:

How much time do we have left Jay?

Jay Johnson:

Oh, for you, I will make time.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

There is so much packed into that question, so let me try to pull back and make it brief. One thing I really find that's beneficial is thinking about several of the adaptability skills that I cover in some adaptability presentations. One of the skills that I mentioned is being willing to be agile, like you mentioned. That takes a gift. What you just explained, jay, when you're in a course of going through your flow. You planned it out, you had that lesson plan, that design document together and you find you've reached that point where it's not hitting the way you expected it to hit. They're not responding like you anticipated.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

It's not easy to be able to say, okay, let me redirect, let me pivot, let me try something different or let me go off in that tangent. So being able to focus in on hey, I have to think about being proactive. When I'm designing, when I'm planning my facilitation, how do I unlearn some things that cause me to be locked into? I have to follow through my plan. How do I make myself more flexible? Another adaptability skill so that I'm focusing on my end in mind what's that experience like for my learner? That means if I'm driving for the learner's experience and not for Esther's facilitation plan, then that's my end goal, and I have to be willing to adjust, which means I have to factor in what are those skills that I learned with facilitation and being able to read my audience, whether they're in person or virtual. Am I responding to that? Just as you pointed out, you know, does it look like they are really attentive when it comes to certain elements, certain topics? Have I allowed opportunity? I just had a video that I did today where I was doing a welcome for the group that I'm expecting to have at the ATD conference, which will be managing learning programs. We're going to New Orleans next month and we have a pre-conference workshop on managing learning programs, and one of the things I typically encourage them to do in this welcome video is bring your burning questions, load them and upload them to the platform. And also, let us know is there a current initiative, a current project that you're working on, where not only will I be able to share my experience and knowledge, but you can collaborate in that space? And so that's another thing that I find so useful, jay is when I'm able to be a little bit more flexible and when I see that collaboration time, they're really thriving and there's a vibe there.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

When people are able to share a problem or get a question answered by not just me but other participants, I go with it, and when I see it's still aligning with my goal, I'll explain to them. Hey, you all, we're deviating slightly from our agenda. Here's why and here's how we're still going to fulfill our goal. So I'm being sure to communicate that to them, because we're going to meet our objectives in one way or another, whether it be I want to send some follow up materials, that's right. Hey, here's that action plan. Need you all to make sure you do so and so? Or, hey, I know we are grown adults. This is workplace learning, but guess what, you have homework tonight. I need you all to make sure. So just a few things that I will do when it's necessary to pivot and when I'm finding that, hey, what I thought was going to be a hit that game, that exercise, that activity, that video, that question was not as impactful or powerful, as I anticipated.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

And with adaptability Jay, and with adaptability Jay, we learn from our experiences for the future and how to unlearn some things and be more curious as to what can I do differently and what else can I research to see what can be incorporated.

Jay Johnson:

And I want to jump on that too. So just because an activity doesn't work with one audience doesn't mean to throw it out. Same thing with the publication, right, like, okay, maybe that doesn't resonate or play with this audience. Really invest some time in reflecting of what was it. Was it because it was too slow, it was too fast? Did it not fit the demographics? Or what was it that made it? So it's not always about just throwing it out, but sometimes it is just about adapting it or thinking about okay, with this type of an audience that's not going to play, let's move on to a different type of audience and see if that works.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

Absolutely. And can I add one thing to that, jay? Something else to consider is asking the necessary preliminary questions if you're not familiar with the group, so you get an idea of what that culture is like, and so that's something that I've done over a number of years. It's not just a culture that's applicable to an individual, but organizations and teams have a culture too. What are the norms, what are the acceptable behaviors, what are the things that are going to resonate with them behaviors what are the things that are going to resonate with them, even with the attire. I ask questions about that with my clients, so I'm not too underdressed or too overdressed and overdressing would be more likely the issue and so I want to make sure that there won't be anything that I can account for, that I can do in a proactive way that's going to detract, that's going to hinder or impede that impact that I want to make in a learning event.

Jay Johnson:

So you know 100%, and it's so interesting to me like and I know he's a controversial figure, but you know, kind of even goes not just above the design or the delivery of a facilitation right, like from a business owner perspective. When COVID hit, we lost $200,000. The first week of quarantine it was gone and it was just like. I remember feeling that like, oh, woe is me. And I'm like, and I am. I am usually pretty agile, pretty adaptive, but I was, I was, I was, I had my little pity party and it was a party of one till one of my staff snapped me out of it and they were like you always talk about, like agility and adaptability.

Jay Johnson:

I know we lost some resources, but what did we gain? That hit me so hard, dr Oster, because it was just like we gained time. We gained time for strategy, we gained time for development, we gained time for research, we gained a shared experience with literally every single one of our clients who are going through the exact same thing and it was that pivot, but it was a mindset pivot before any of the behaviors could have pivoted. How have you experienced, you know, when you see something like that, if you're, if you're talking to a young trainer. What advice would you give that trainer or that coach in being able to say, hey, you know what, sometimes you're going to lose something but you're going to gain something else, how would you help coach them into getting some of that adaptability outside of? I'm going to say, read your book. I said that you didn't have to say that, but what is your piece of advice for them?

Dr. Esther Jackson:

So that really prompts a thought connected to I don't know if you're familiar or if your audience is familiar, please look into it. If you're familiar, or if your audience is familiar, please look into it Daniel Goldman's emotional intelligence model, and something that not a lot of people know is that there are four quadrants to this model. You have the self-awareness quadrant, you have the social awareness quadrant, you have the relational awareness quadrant, as well as the self-control quadrant. That self-control quadrant is where you find adaptability, and when we think about self-awareness, essentially it's I know what's going to stress me out. I know my pressure points. I can recognize when my mood changes when I'm stressed. I know what drink I need I don't drink, though, Dre when.

Jay Johnson:

I need to go into my happy.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

Seriously, I don't drink, so everything has to be a virgin. So when I need to go to my happy place, I know what dessert is going to take me there. Okay, things like that. Well, that's self-awareness. Do you recognize what your level of self-esteem is? That's self-awareness. Do you recognize what your level of self-esteem is? How confident are you in your instructional design ability and your ability to manage and work with people, manage relationships and all, and then, with that self-control quadrant, that's well the self-awareness we said. We know when our button has been pressed and when it hasn't. What's going to take us to that point, what's going to set us off, what's going to be the just the most pleasant thing for us, whereas self-control is. Are you able to maintain your composure once you've been triggered? You know, are you a little too excited because you're so happy? Can you pull it back? You?

Dr. Esther Jackson:

know, your starter back off, back off, back off. You control it. So, with the adaptability falling in there, something that I encourage people to think about is identifying what your triggers are. I had to think about what triggers me. Disrespect triggers me.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

A person who is not willing to admit a failure and has to, you know, dance around it and can admit fault, not willing to work things out and talk out a situation. A person who just wants to delegate, doesn't want to do any work to assist and support the process, or people who are not respectful and conscious of differences when it comes to, maybe, neurodiverse, or ensuring that there's equity when it comes to opportunities, benefits and things. So, just a few things like that, you know, not speaking over someone who is not one that's quick to speak up and ensuring that everyone is included Just a few things that stand out for me. So this is Esther, and so something I ask people to consider is how well do you know yourself? Do you recognize things like that about yourself? Do you recognize your biases?

Dr. Esther Jackson:

And sometimes it helps, jay, to see where they're rooted. Are they rooted to certain experiences that hurt us or that were just a joy to us? And understanding the why behind it, which is partially why, when you know we may go to a therapist or someone to talk about our problem, one of the things they want to ask you tell me about your childhood, because so much of who we are now is based on what we experience, what we learned so early on in our lives. So, being able to recognize you're one who you have an issue when it comes to failure, all you can do is win. You're that high dominant person in this. Are there some ways you can look to get a balance when it comes to that and recognize, yes, a lot of strengths with that D. What are some opportunity areas where that dominance may be an issue and you can work to address those particular areas? So that's something that I really put forth and encourage those that I mentor to do.

Jay Johnson:

I love that you said one of my absolute favorite words is balance. Too much of anything is going to probably cause you a little problem and too little of something is probably going to do the same. So finding that balance always a good thing. Dr Esther, we are nearing the end of our time here. I could sit here and talk to you for hours. You mentioned the ATD24 conference coming up. You're doing a program in advance of that. Can you share just a little bit more about that? If our audience wanted to take advantage of that, what an incredible opportunity. I know the ATD conferences are just incredible, and three days working with you, that would be an absolute treat. So share a little bit about what's going on there.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

For sure. So with this conference ATD, if you're not aware, the Association for Talent Development is the largest professional association with this particular conference we're going to be in New Orleans. It is taking place, I want to say, the 19th through the 22nd of May, and prior to that I will be facilitating a managing learning certificate program which is geared to those who are responsible for the whole L&D, the whole learning and development area of their particular organization, or the whole learning and development team, or maybe they are a one-person band and responsible for everything learning-wise. So we cover quite a bit in three days and it's a lot to be covered, jay, because we walk them through what needs to be built and, jay, because we walk them through what needs to be built and incorporated in your learning and development strategy.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

We talk about the business plan. We talk about the importance of finding out what are the needs for those individuals who are in your various business areas. You can't work in isolation. You're not a solo act. One quote I came up with when I had my last group, when we were in San Diego and I did the same program before the conference was when I learned the business, I learned the need. When I learned the need. I've learned my business.

Jay Johnson:

That's amazing.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

If my business is learning and development, I need to learn the essence, the core of what's going on in my organization. I need to get around to those different business area leaders, find out what keeps them up at night, what are their pain points, and learn how I can create and develop that learning portfolio for the organization that connects to the bottom line, because it's targeting not only what's important overall to the organization why we do business, our vision, our mission but also addressing the needs of those respective business areas. So we talk about that. We talk about how to partner with your business areas and your organization, as well as those relationships, how to maintain them, how to do the influence. What are those sections in the learning and development strategy? When you want to outsource, what are the steps involved with managing those contracts, the negotiation piece, and those are just a handful of the topics that we cover.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

Jay so much goes into that, as well as Addie. We spend a chunk of time with Addie, and so that's something I love. And then all of this is in the three days prior to the conference and, in addition to that certificate for those three days, I am also doing one of the conference sessions, Jay, at the conference and it is C-suite talk in 3D and the 3D is when you go to C-suite when you are looking for a decision, approval or sign off on something for your learning and development project, initiative or whatever. You need to go to the senior level management team with data, dollars and decisions.

Jay Johnson:

So your talk needs to incorporate data, dollars and decisions.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

So you're talking to incorporate data, dollars and decisions, and I will be breaking that down as to what goes into that, and so that's something I was able to do for ATD Detroit give them a sneak peek into it, and I leveraged a Shark Tank type of thing Because, I mean, they're a panel of judges.

Jay Johnson:

That's right.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

Investor capitalists, and we can learn a whole lot about C-Suite Talk. Looking at Shark Tank.

Jay Johnson:

I love that. I love that. Well, dr Esther, I can't tell you how appreciative I am for you joining us here on the Talent Forward, sharing your knowledge and helping shape the future of talent development. We will be putting the Amazon link to Dr Esther's book in the show notes as well, as we'll get a link from you and how people can sign up. As somebody who's done a couple of the ATD certificates, as well as the master trainer designation, I can tell you they are well thought out, they are brilliantly executed and I have absolutely no doubt that you will be making that impact that we talked about earlier on everybody that comes to your session. So thank you again so much for being with us today. It's been my pleasure, and don't be surprised if you get asked to come and talk to us again, because I know that we've scratched the surface of your knowledge and experience. So thank you again, dr Esther.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

The surface of your knowledge and experience. So thank you again, dr Esther, thank you so much, jay and anyone else free to reach out to me at wwwlynjackcom. And then, concerning ATD, I encourage you to visit tdorg to learn more about what ATD has available in terms of L&D materials and opportunities.

Jay Johnson:

Amazing. Do yourself a favor, connect with Dr Esther Jackson and thank you again so much for everything that you do for talent development.

Dr. Esther Jackson:

My pleasure. Have a great Wednesday. Take care everyone.

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Jay Johnson, CEO and Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements

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