The Talent Forge: Shaping the Future of Training and Development with Jay Johnson

Building High Accountability and Morale with Doris Jackson-Shazier

• Jay Johnson • Season 1 • Episode 5

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Unlock the secrets to building high accountability and high morale teams with insights from Doris Jackson-Shazier, our distinguished guest on this episode of the Talent Forge. Ever wondered how parenthood parallels leadership? Doris illuminates this intriguing connection and shares actionable advice on achieving long-term business results. Her coaching method, centered around thoughtful questioning and moments of introspection, provides a unique approach to fostering better decision-making and stronger leadership.

Effective communication is at the heart of any successful training and coaching session. In this episode, we explore practical strategies to set clear expectations and create a psychologically safe environment. Doris introduces innovative tools like "blind pop quizzes" for honest feedback and shares tips on managing group dynamics, especially in spaces where power differentials exist. If you've ever felt discomfort in facilitating such techniques, Doris offers confidence-building advice to help you navigate these challenges smoothly.

Sustaining learning and ensuring accountability are critical for lasting impact. Doris emphasizes the importance of long-term commitment over one-time training events. She shares her techniques for reinforcing learning, such as follow-up calls and tiered leadership training, to ensure continuous improvement and accountability. Discover how to convince leadership to invest in meaningful, long-term training solutions. This episode is a treasure trove of practical strategies for anyone keen on enhancing their leadership and training effectiveness.

Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com

Jay Johnson:

Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge, where today's guest is Doris Jackson-Sha zier. Welcome, Doris Hi.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

thank you for having me, Jay.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, thank you for being here. So to give our audience a little insight into who you are, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

Well, so I am a leadership coach and management consultant and so I support executives, business owners, corporate leaders and helping them to build high accountability, high morale teams. Helping them to find that balance is one of the things that seems to be pretty interesting for a lot Like how do I execute high standards and excellence but maintain good relationships at the same time? So I kind of specialize in teaching people how to navigate that area. I'm also a mother of four and I'm on a mission to let people know that motherhood is a leadership position, so I often parenthood, to be fair, and so I often help, especially executive leaders, draw those parallels into how being a leader at work and being a leader at home can be challenging, but if we execute the same strategy in both places, it reduces that dissonance and some of that pull that we experience between work and home life.

Jay Johnson:

I love that, Doris. My mother was definitely an executive in her own right. She wasn't an executive in the corporate world, but definitely in the homestead, so I love it Definitely from like the training industry, one of the things that we see is nine out of 10 trainings typically don't yield results. They don't get follow through. Two weeks later everybody's forgotten it. What is maybe some of the things that you talk about when you think about accountability and getting busy executives to stay accountable to some of the things that are easily sloughed off?

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

Yeah. So I think one of the things that tends to happen is we get focused on learning objectives versus business outcomes, and I think that's where we lose the accountability piece is because we're focused on okay, these are our training objectives, this is what we want to make sure each person learns, but we don't necessarily tie it into what the KPIs or what the results that we want to see in the business. So I think the first thing we have to do and establish in order to have good accountability is begin with the end in mind, start with that business outcome. What do we want to see it look like? What does great look like? What is our you know our dream or ideal situation, and then work our way backwards and then how do we incorporate that end result in the training? And right then you build in where you're more apt to build in accountability levers, because you're considering what it needs to look like on the outside. So, out the gate, consider the business outcomes right away, and then it's a quick way to establish the accountability.

Jay Johnson:

Doris, that's incredible advice and that's literally one of the reasons why we are seeing talent. You know, the talent division of an organization get gutted because they're coming in, they get five star ratings and reviews and all of the people are like oh, we loved it, it was such a great experience, such a great training. And then the executives, who are the ones that are essentially holding the purse strings or holding the accountability at the top, are going yeah, but we did a conflict training and we still have all this conflict. Or we did a sales training and our sales haven't gone up. So that focal point on the outcomes absolutely brilliant.

Jay Johnson:

So, as you're coaching an executive, help me understand, like, what are some of the things that you will do in order to get them to maybe see that sort of long-term business outcome? Like, what is it that walks them past that? Because we, as humans, tend to stop at the first thing we know. So what gets them? How do you get them to move beyond and say think bigger, think larger, think longer term? What does that look like for you?

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

So it's a lot of questioning. Honestly, I believe that most people in their positions they have some of the answers or an idea to the answer themselves. Sometimes. Number one is getting them to pause and reflect, because sometimes they get caught up in being busy and don't realize how much it it interrupts their clarity of thinking, and so I try and provide a safe space where they can, you know, talk about whatever they want to talk about. But then I pose a lot of questions so I get them, I listen to what they say and I use that to really get them to be a little bit more introspective. And it's wonderful, like almost magnificent, in how they kind of come up with their own answers, like the answers are already there.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

Sometimes, it's just they haven't paused long enough to really think it through. And then I do, I guess, what you can call constant gentle pressure. I'm getting that from setting the table that book, danny Myers that's his name, the author and he talks about that constant gentle pressure and how we need to kind of apply all three in order to really get someone going. And so that's the way I kind of describe my leadership and coaching style is I'm there and then I kind of challenged them a little bit to think maybe a little bit more than what they're thinking about, but then I'm gentle enough to let them rest in silence.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

I'm not, you know, I don't try and consult them unless they hire me for my consulting work, but I really offer an opportunity for them to just think, pause, slow down, pause, slow down, ask the right questions, allow them to become introspective, and then really I sit very well in silence and sometimes it makes people really uncomfortable. They feel the need to keep the conversation going and not just allow it to be silent just to see what comes to them. Or maybe that uncomfortableness that comes out of silence may get them to thinking in a way they don't typically think, because they're always being busy. And so that's what seems to work with me is asking the right questions and then allowing them to really pause and think it through, because most of these executives they're moving so much that they really get those opportunities.

Jay Johnson:

Well, and I think that's true and translate so audience. Take that as one of the tips for today is don't be afraid of that silence. You know when you're working with a team or you're working with a group. Let them find their journey to what the answer is, rather than necessarily. You know when you're, when you're a trainer, and you're standing in front of a group and you're like and what would you do? And it's radio silence. That silence feels like it is an excessive amount of time, right?

Jay Johnson:

So, Doris, tell me how do you navigate that when you're sitting there and you're, like you, ask the question, you know where you want them to go, or you know at least where you want to guide them. How do you help yourself stay focused and grounded enough to stay silent in those moments where it does feel uncomfortable? That'll be a huge tip. How do you navigate that?

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

Yes, I think it's a couple things. I think the first thing is my mindset around it. So you have to change the way you think about the silence. So I've reframed it in my mind as oh, their wheels are turning. So for me it's not a pause or an awkward moment of oh my God, they're super quiet. What's going on? It's more so. They're thinking right now. Give them an opportunity to think it and someone's going to come up with the answer or will make a suggestion.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

I think the other thing I do is when I facilitate courses, I kind of lead in with a Doris disclaimer.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

I really give them an opportunity to know who I am and kind of what they're going to get for the next few hours, and that's one of the things I lead in with. My disclaimer is hey, I am very comfortable with silence. I want this to be a collaborative experience. So there may be moments where I ask a question and then everybody gets quiet because maybe you're afraid to answer or whatever the case may be. However, I may just stand there and I just want you to know that's me respecting your ability to think through whatever the thought is. So if I get a little silent for you, just know that I'm giving you the opportunity almost like a pass, like I'm stepping out of the way and allow you to walk through the door first, and so I kind of give that disclaimer up front. And so what it has done is I see that they'll notice me there and I'll kind of perk my eyes and kind of smile like I'm waiting, and then they're like, oh okay, so she wants us to really say something.

Jay Johnson:

If you haven't already, you should be trademarking the Doris disclaimer so brilliant.

Jay Johnson:

But I like that because what you're doing is you're literally setting the expectations and gently encouraging them Like I'm not going to solve your problems for you, and I think a lot of trainers and coaches I don't think they set the expectations for this is participatory. This is really where my expectations for your engagement and I can sit here and be silent in this space, because I told you I was going to do that, so now it's not awkward for me, it's only going to be awkward for you.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

It's definitely awkward for them because I'm accustomed to it. It doesn't feel awkward for me. And then you know, and I'm very observant, so then I look at the ones that look like they're critically thinking. You know, some people look up when they're thinking, they put their hand on their chin and then I'm like I see you're thinking about it. Can you tell me what are you thinking right now? And then I'll give you an opportunity to talk through it.

Jay Johnson:

I like that. So now you're not only just asking them to get to the final conclusion, but even talk through the journey. How is that experience for you? What happens when they start Cause? You know, I can imagine I'm sitting there, I'm thinking I'm like, all right, I'm about halfway through this thought, doris. She's already given me Doris disclaimer. I know she's going to call on somebody or get us going there. I'm now in a journey. What experience does that generally bring out in the space?

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

So it's been pretty positive. And again, I think that it's a very gentle accountability tactic. So now people are listening. People know that I will pause and wait for their participation. So it makes them more engaged in the class because they don't know when this opportunity is going to present itself again where they have to answer something. So they're much more engaged. And then I think the first pause is probably the most awkward. After that people realize oh, she's serious. She will literally wait until someone says something. And again, I still try and make sure that it's a psychologically safe environment. But I let them know right up front I want us to collaborate. I'm okay with your challenging. Or if I see someone who maybe looks like there's a little dissonance with what they heard, and I say, hey, do you feel the same way or do you feel differently about it? And so I kind of tailor it based off of what I'm seeing. But so far I've gotten very positive feedback from it and I definitely tend to have high engagement in my meetings.

Jay Johnson:

And it seems to me that you do create that safe space, you do set the expectations incredibly well. So now it's one of those things where, ok, well, it is safe for me to talk through my journey or maybe even just kind of muddle through this, even if I don't have it fully formed. But I feel like I'm going to be supported by Doris as we navigate that forward.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

Here's another tip I would add is something that just came back to me. So I do what I call blind pop quizzes. So I do what I call blind pop quizzes. And so if it's really awkward, awkward silence, and I recognize that perhaps what I'm asking to engage in is sensitive, or perhaps there's a differentiation of leadership in the room, so their boss may be there, and so it could be a little bit, although I'm creating psychological safety, it doesn't feel as safe because someone in power is in the room.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

So what I will do is I'll listen to that awkward silence and I'll say, okay, so maybe I'm touching on something that we don't really want to say out loud. So here's what we're all going to do I want everyone in the room to close their eyes, and I'll walk and I'll close your eyes, and then I ask the question raise your hand if you know, whatever, and I'll go. Hey, hey, I see. No, no, peeking, you know. Just so they know I'm secure in this space, I'm making sure no one's looking, and okay, and, and I'll take a vote, and so I'll ask two or three questions and then I make sure their eyes are closed and then I give them the results.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

All right. So how many of you guys think the majority of the room said this? How many of you guys think the majority of the room said that? So I kind of protect the innocent, and so it depends on what the situation is. But people tend to think that's fun, and then when I give them the results and they're like wait, so 75% of the room felt that way, I'm like just want you guys to know you're not alone, because it was quite a few of you guys that raised your hand, but they don't feel exposed, sure. So it depends on what the conversation is.

Jay Johnson:

Well, and that can be a difficult thing, right, like especially and I've done, I've done trust workshops, where managers and their and their direct reports are in the same room alongside of the manager. Supervisor is in the same room and it's just like the manager's, like Jay, I'm not, I'm not ready to answer that. Okay, let's, let's do this in a different way.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

And that's when we do the blind pop study. Okay, let's do this in a different way, and that's when we do the blind pop study. That's right, I love that.

Jay Johnson:

I love that. So, and help me, and so for the audience, if you're sitting there and you're like, oh my God, I dread silence, I hate silence. I've been trying to work on my deployment of silence, doris. Was it super comfortable for you the first time you did it? If it was, how did you sort of come into that? And if it wasn't, what did you do to maybe practice that ability like, because I'm I'm guessing that that's something with with somebody, with your experience, you, you've, you've honed this skill to an excess, you know, like to a perfect point over the years. So how does that feel?

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

Was. It was very uncomfortable at first because I am a chatty person, I'm a social butterfly, I love to talk and engage people like I'm just literally a social person period. So I will admit that it was hard at first. Again, it started with my mindset Instead of viewing the awkward silence as something is wrong, I viewed it as demonstrating patience and kindness. How can I allow this person to come to a full thought? So the minute I started thinking about it as a courteous act, then it became easier to do.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

Another thing that I do to help me to make sure that I'm giving enough pause is I count. 30 seconds is incredibly long in a presentation, so when you get about to 18 seconds you can start feeling that awkwardness and then you'll have a few people in the room that start feeling compelled to say something. Like they will literally say something, and sometimes at that mark, especially at the 15 second, 18 second mark this is where sometimes I do evaluate Is this question sensitive? Is there a particular reason why they may not be responding? And so if I need to enact the blind pop quiz, I go ahead and enact it at that moment. I've never had to go more than this awkward close to 30 seconds.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, well, and what you said there is. It's amazing because most people it's like two or three seconds They'll ask a question and then they almost answer their own question because they hadn't gotten a response in one, two, three, four oh my God, nobody's talking. Five, six oh my God, now it's really true. I better answer, so the 15 seconds, I like that and then making sure that you're kind of monitoring the room, for how are people reacting, responding from body language, et cetera. Such a great tip, doris. That is literally. I think it is one of the things that really makes a standout coach and a standout trainer from somebody who's maybe early in the game and hasn't developed that I'd say 15 to 18 seconds is probably about the average time you'll ever have to go, Like I had it maybe twice go up over that.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

At that point I probably was trying to prove a point like oh, I'll wait, you know, but typically as you approach that 15 seconds, 15 seconds People get antsy and they'll say something, or you can re-ask the question or again go with the blind pop quiz, but about 15 seconds really gives them enough time to really just sit in it.

Jay Johnson:

I love the mindset comment too. So one of the things that kind of my primary area of study is behavioral drives and one of the things that we know about trainers and coaches. They tend to have a very strong drive to bond one of the four core drives and reframing the mindset. So, like a lot of times, if we're doing sales work with somebody who has a strong drive to bond, they may have a difficulty in the final ask or they may have difficulty, sort of like, being direct on it because they want to be sensitive and kind and considerate. Flipping that mindset to say no, you are actually being kind and considerate with your direct ask, because you're making clarity, you're giving them an option, you're offering a product of value, et cetera, is usually the tipping point that gets them to do that. So being able to shift that mindset to say no, this silence is a gift. This silence is a space for reflection where we do our most growth, which is an incredible way to think about it. I love that, doris.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

Thank you.

Jay Johnson:

Jay, yeah, so I want to dig a little bit further into accountability. We spent a little bit of time here on silence, but I do think that that is one of the most important tactics that any trainer or coach can learn to develop and hone and get really comfortable in sitting in silence. But let's go to accountability, because I think this is such a unique space and, as a trainer, it's one of those things where, okay, am I responsible to hold the audience accountable? Is the management responsible to hold that audience account? Is the person responsible to hold themselves accountable?

Jay Johnson:

I'm sure the answer is a little bit of yes to all of these, but that seems to be one of the big challenges is, people leave a training or even a coaching session and they're like oh my gosh, doris gave me the best ideas today, I'm super excited about it. And then they walk back into the office and there's 62 emails, there's nine reports waiting on their desk, there's something else going on and, all of a sudden, all of the learning that they were going to immediately implement becomes a second priority or a third priority, or a fourth priority. What do you do to maybe encourage and engage them, even beyond the time that you're spending face to face or the time that you're working with them in person to keep them accountable over that next week or over that next month, or how does that look for you?

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

So one of the things, one of the mistakes that I think sometimes we make in learning and development is one time training events they're just very, very hard to sustain or creating training moments that we don't. We haven't really thought about a reinforcement or a sustainability plan, and so one of the things that I do, especially when I'm partnering with a corporation or business and they are implementing change or implementing, you know, new skills development, we're going to talk about the actual training and then we're going to talk about what reinforcement looks like and then what a sustainability plan looks like. And I think sometimes that's the big miss we again put a lot of money into one day training and not a lot of focus into what reinforcements look like. So part of the things that I offer, some of the solutions that I offer with my business, is I do reinforcement calls where we may meet together let's say it's 30 leaders. We may break them up into groups of five and we may spend an hour reinforcing the skills that we learned during the training, three weeks out, six weeks out and then 10 weeks out, just so that they have an opportunity to apply what they learned, come back, express the challenges, we re, we redirect, we see how we can apply it again and come back again.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

So I think having proper reinforcement, reinforcement sessions in place is really, really key to sustaining or um, kind of the sticky glue to the training right. And then, in a part of that sustainability plan I I think sometimes we train one dimensional, meaning we don't train all levels of leadership, so sending just maybe the middle managers but not the directors that are accountable, that are going to hold the middle managers accountable, or if this is directed for frontline employees, but not necessarily training the supervisors and the managers on what the expectations should be, what follow-up conversation should be. We create our own gaps and so they get the training, they go back in there, but no one has created the tools to follow up with, has explained the process of how to follow up what good looks like, what happens when they're not doing good. So I think that's where we create the gaps. We just we sometimes miss the mark on reinforcement and sustainability.

Jay Johnson:

Oh my gosh, you literally just made my heart flutter, doris, because that's and so many things to unpack there. Number one is I love the idea of having the multiple levels of leadership go through the training, because there's a couple of different things. Like I was, I was working with a big fortune 500. I was working with their entry level leaders, so they have direct reports, and then they have above level leaders, so I'm telling them all the things they need to do. You need to have these one-to-ones, you need to have this, you need to have this, you need to have this. And every single time that we did this session, it was just like I went to my own one-to-one with my leader and it was horrible. And they don't know how to do a one-to-one. And this is what it was, and it was a check-in and it wasn't actually engaging or anything else like that. And I'm like I know, but I've pushed for this, I'm not responsible for your level of leader, for above that level of leadership, that's supposed to be somebody else's world, but yeah.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

It's one of the frustrating parts about our jobs sometimes is you get to train one level and then the other level doesn't understand how they impact.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, or they don't have that same shared language. So, trainers, coaches, if you're out there and listening, get all the levels, get at least stakeholders in the room, get them to understand what they're going through and get them to buy in in advance of the tactics and techniques that you're going to get them to be hopefully accountable to as they go forward. So I love that, the multiple levels of leadership. You mentioned a sustainability plan. Can you talk through that just a little bit? That's not something that I think many trainers or coaches really think about. Like, they come in, they do their job, they do it great, they leave knowledge, but that knowledge doesn't always turn into action. So what does that sustainability plan look like for you? I know you had mentioned, obviously, some follow-up meetings and things like that. Do you do anything to engage the company? Do you do anything to engage the person outside? Go ahead and share with me.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

So I'm very big on creating long-term relationships and sometimes I think it's different with. It's a differentiator. Right now, people are looking for the one time Can you come in for through a three-hour workshop. I'm like, hey, okay, but based off of what I've learned about your business and where you want your business to go, I can do this three-hour training. But if you really want to get to where you're going, you're going to need something a little bit longer. When do we reinforce what they learned in three hours? How do we follow up on that? What tools are you willing to create and implement?

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

And so that sustainability plan is really about looking at what happens after the first 30 days, after the excitement is gone, after we went over it. How do we bring this to life? And sometimes that comes along with creating tools, making sure that the KPIs are in place and they have a way to measure whatever the expectation is, and then creating checkpoints or milestones. So we know that we're doing good when this is happening. We know that we're doing better when this is happening. It kind of goes back to those business outcomes. So the sustainability plan really ties in with the business outcomes and it help us to really identify what are going to be those critical milestones, to let us know that we're on the right track and we're doing well.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

And so I like to talk with my clients and get them to identify that upfront hey, we know we're doing really well when this is happening. We know we're doing very well when this is happening. All right, now let's build a plan on how to get there. So the sustainability plan helps you to do that and it just again makes sure that those behaviors are so reinforced that it becomes second nature. You can't do that in three hours, so the increments I like is three months, six months, I mean excuse me, 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, and then I like a six month check in.

Jay Johnson:

OK, that makes total sense. And you know, even thinking about it like the way that we learned as children, can you imagine going into a classroom and be like OK, we're going to do an eight hour session on math and then we're going to test you again on this a year later and see how the results were it? Just, it doesn't work that way. We need to practice, we need the experience, we need to be able to fail and then come back and try again, and so on and so forth. And that can't happen in that workshop.

Jay Johnson:

Now, Doris, what do you do? And I know that we've got a lot of freelance. We got a lot of freelance listeners. So this is really for those freelancers out there that are not necessarily embedded in an organization. How do you manage? Okay, so you come in and you say, hey, here's the plan, no-transcript. Well, that training didn't work when we said, yeah, this training is going to give them some knowledge and some ideas and some practices, but this is really what's going to get your behavioral change. How do you influence the leadership? Or are there any tactics that you can share that you say this is kind of my go-to of getting leadership to understand if you want the business results. This is what it's going to take.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

So I would tell you exactly what you described is what I experienced a lot. So there is more often than I would like I walk away from a one time, or sometimes I get them to commit to a series. I personally like the pitch series instead of one time trainings, because then I can build in that reinforcement and I can layer the training and it's more likely to stick. And it's more likely to stick. But just like you described, I have the people where they're interested in a one-time event and they don't have the budget or just really the interest in a long-term commitment. And so first thing I do is I professionally challenge that perspective. I get them to identify what is it that they need and what is it that they want, because those are two different things. And so sometimes when you're appealing to a person's perceived need, then they're just trying to check a box.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

But if you can get into a comfortable or a comfortable conversation and really appeal to their wants, we all have a way of thinking about our wants and we most of us can agree that a lot of our wants we have to work hard for. Some of our wants are long-term goals. Some of those take times, they take nourishment. It's almost like raising a child. We know that it requires this extra effort to get to those wants and things that we need. And so I go and I shift them from their need into what is it that you really, really want. You want your business to go here, you want your business to flourish you, and then I compel them that, hey, if this is what you want, this is how you get here. It works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't, but I really get them to focus on their ideal, their dream.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, I think one of the interesting reasons that it doesn't I this is what I've seen is that the leadership goes okay, but we've had trainings before that didn't work or didn't produce the outcomes. So this is more of a checkbox, this is more of a we have to do this. This is more of a luxury. I don't want to take eight hours away from the team when it's not going to work anyway. So I'm really going to focus us and only allow us to do two, which then just reinforces that, but the training's not effective. And then they go. Training's not effective, but we still have to do it. So let's just do this two-hour training. But I think it's until we start having conversations exactly like this one, doris, that we're going to finally get people to go. Hey, you know what? We've got to push back. We've got to say if you want behavioral change, this is what it looks like and it comes at a cost.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

And I'm very flexible and don't mean to interrupt, but I'm very flexible in helping them to create what it can look like. If they say I said well, how many hours? Break it down for me in hours, how many hours are you willing to give or invest in your teams of skill development? Well, two days, 16 hours, okay, 16 hours. If you're willing to invest 16 hours, let's break those 16 hours up over a two-month period, yeah, and then we can do an hour of reinforcement.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

So I will help them to recreate the way they think about training. They think, oh, we can only allot for two days. But if I can show you a way to recreate the way they think about training, they think, oh, we can only a lot for two days. But if I can show you a way to use the same amount of time and break it up over the course of 30 days, 34 or five days, and show you that by doing it that way you would get more traction and have more sustainable results, are you willing to do it that way?

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

And so sometimes, again, you focus on what it is that they want. They really, really want to change behavior. So now I'm not talking about we need a training session. We're not checking a box anymore. I'm appealing to your desire to see this change and getting you to rethink about how it can happen. If you tell me you can give me two days, I will probably try and take those two days and spread it into four half days, just to have that sustainability and follow up and give people an opportunity to practice it.

Jay Johnson:

I love that approach, doris, and I think that's a great tip tactic for you audience. If they are willing to say, hey, let's do a two day training on the subject, question that and say you know, is this better to do four half day trainings or is this better to do, you know, eight, you know couple hour trainings with some follow through? That's that's brilliant. But a lot, of, a lot of times I think trainers or coaches are maybe a little reluctant to push back.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

So that's how you institute good accountability also, because in having to follow up with them, now there's expectations when they show up, now you can assign homework, now you can do all these other things. That helps build in that accountability.

Jay Johnson:

Doris disclaimer you're going to see me in two weeks and you better have this done.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

Otherwise, we're going to have a conversation and a lot of silence, and you know I don't mind silence, so I'll sit here until you say something.

Jay Johnson:

Doris, this has been an amazing conversation and I'm loving the takeaways that we're having here. If you have any, let's go with. What's a final takeaway, as we kind of near our end of our time here and I think this conversation could probably last for hours, but we try to keep this nice and tight. What is, you know, some final recommendations for our audience of trainers, coaches, hr people. What is the best way for them to move forward? Obviously, we've talked about silence. We've talked about accountability and some of these great tactics that you're implementing. Any other final comments on? Do this?

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

I had to say do this. It'll be broken up into two things. Two things are very, very particular for me High accountability and high morale. And when I think about the high accountability, as you're building these training programs and you're interacting with the leaders that you are developing, I think the first thing is build in accountability, build in those checkpoints and those things that will help them to feel responsible for their learning. And so I think it's super, super important to again that high accountability piece to make sure that we're building in. It's just better than the framework that I'm responsible for learning that this is serious business, we're not doing this for fun. Those business outcomes, really, really understanding those business outcomes are so helpful. And then I think the other part is high morale.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

Too often we think, in order to execute excellence, that it has to be a stuffy and a firm in a strict environment, and I just challenge that. I've been able to be very successful. I haven't always been in the learning and development department per se. I was an operations leader. I've worked as a manager, a district manager, a regional director, before becoming a senior director of leadership development, and so, with having that blend from operations and learning and development, I was able.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

I experienced so much success by balancing the accountability with high morale encouraging vacations, learning the names of the kids of the people that I work with, learning their spouses' names, but really building great relationships with them and really setting good expectations, upfront, super direct, a lot of clarity and those types of things that people shy away from help build trust and consistency and people knew what they expect when they were working with me. So again, don't be afraid of establishing high accountability and building it into the framework, but make sure that it's relational, make sure that you can have morale, you have good morale. You can't have both, and I think sometimes people think, oh, we have a great relationship, so now I can't hold them accountable, or I have to hold them accountable, so now we can't have a relationship. No, you can have both.

Jay Johnson:

And I think that's so powerful, right when we think about giving ownership, and giving that ownership over responsibility for their learning and development, and then helping them to be connected. If people like you, they do business with you. If they don't like you, they may get their business to disrupt you. So building those two things as, as you know, the pillars with each other such a powerful, powerful lesson. So, doris, where can our audience find you? If they want to reach out to you, what's the best way to get in touch with you?

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

So the best way to get in touch with me is my name, dorisjacksonshazier. com. That's actually my author site. I am a new author as well, and then I also have shaziercoachingconsult. com, so either website. I am very visible on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram, all under Doris Jackson-Sh azier or Shazier Coaching Consult. But I would love, love, love to be in contact with some of you L and D folks. Um, I'm a part of the community and always looking for opportunities to support and help and grow leaders.

Jay Johnson:

Love it and plug the book name before we. Before we sign off here Congratulations, thank you.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

The name of my book is raisinging Justice and in my book I tell my journey of when I got my first leadership position, which was motherhood. I was a 19 year old first generation college student that found myself pregnant and I raised my daughter, who is now 19 years old and she's a college graduate. So I tell the journey of the resilience, the faith and the grace, of the resilience, the faith and the grace, and it's the things I endured in parenting in a way that I wasn't parented, and just how magnificent life has turned out for the both of us.

Jay Johnson:

That's incredible, Doris, I'm so happy for you and congratulations. We'll make sure that we put the links to that in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here and engaging in this conversation. I think our audience has a lot to take away from this and hopefully we'll be able to get you back on there. I think there's we only scratched the surface. I have absolutely no doubt. We get to probably talk for another two hours here, but thank you again for being here.

Doris Jackson-Shazier:

Thank you so much, Jay. I appreciate the opportunity.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, and thank you, audience, for tuning into this episode of Talent Forge, where we are shaping the future of learning, talent and development. So stay tuned for our next episode and thank you so much for listening.

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Jay Johnson, CEO and Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements

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