The Talent Forge: Shaping the Future of Training and Development with Jay Johnson

Building Trust: Expert Coaching Insights with Curtis Butler

• Jay Johnson

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Join us for a compelling conversation with Curtis Butler, a finance veteran who transitioned into a career coaching role to help young professionals find their paths. Curtis shares his journey from finance to mentoring, offering expert insights on how to support college students and recent graduates through the uncertainties of job searching.

We also explore strategies for personalized coaching that can be applied to both young and adult learners. Curtis dives deep into the importance of building trust, providing actionable tasks, and fostering behavioral change within sales teams. With real-world examples and practical advice, this episode is filled with essential tips for anyone looking to enhance their coaching techniques and empower others to achieve career success. Don’t miss out on these invaluable lessons from an industry expert!

Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com

Jay Johnson:

Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge, where today we're featuring our guest, Curtis Butler. Welcome to the show, Curtis.

Curtis Butler:

Thank you very much. It's really a pleasure.

Jay Johnson:

Glad to have you. So if you could give our audience a little bit of background what you do, what your focus area is, and just a little bit about your story bit about your story.

Curtis Butler:

Sure, so after more than 30 years in finance, just this year I formally launched a career coaching business, really targeting college students, recent grads and young professionals. This kind of coaching and mentoring is something I've done throughout my entire career. It's actually something I love to do and I've done a lot of it in my free time with students from the schools I went to, but also anyone in the firms I worked with who just needed a little bit of extra support or maybe some advice. That could always count on me to keep it confidential, and I just enjoy helping the whole team rise. So I figured, you know, let's turn that passion into a profession and I now started my own firm work for myself and I'm really enjoying the interaction with the young people and helping them find the jobs that they really want to get.

Jay Johnson:

I love that, love those aha moments when you see somebody kind of find their path or work their way to where they really want to be. Now let's talk about that experience with working with young people, and a lot of people sometimes would think maybe just young people, but I think this really spans the entire range of adulthood. Right, we don't always know what we want to be. We don't know what we want to do tomorrow. We don't always have a clear sense of goals in mind. How do you talk me through your process? How do you help, say, a young person identify their goal and really kind of create a plan for that?

Curtis Butler:

That's a really important part of the process, and I tell students before they sign up I say look, the beginning of this is all about helping you create the best candidate profile we can create for you so that you're putting your best foot forward when you actually do apply for jobs profile we can create for you so that you're putting your best foot forward when you actually do apply for jobs. The challenge is that people go out and apply for dozens of jobs without really making sure what they're putting out there is the best version of themselves. So we work on that first and foremost. Basically, what kind of story are you telling through your resume, your cover letters, your interviewing? And a huge part of that conversation is okay, now that we've got you dressed up pretty well, what is it you really want to do? And exactly to the question that you asked, I find a lot of young people today and it may be true later in life as well, when we pivot but a lot of young people today are pursuing paths that someone else told them they should pursue or that their friends who are a little bit older have been successful at.

Curtis Butler:

So they might as well do that and they don't really have this really strong sense of what is their own passion. Where do they really want to go? So when I start with a student or a recent grad, I said look, take money off the table. Assume that 10 years from now you're going to be doing just fine. You're going to be able to take care of your family, you're going to have a when I'm 30, I'd really like to. That's what I want to get to. And so where's the real passion? And then the ideal is finding the nexus between that passion and where their talents lie. If you can find that sweet spot, you're on the right path. And that's where we start. Sometimes the skills and talents don't match the passion. Sometimes the passion isn't quite there, but the skills and talents are obvious. Maybe the passion will come, but that is really the starting point with every conversation, and many times students are surprised by their own answers.

Jay Johnson:

Well and I love this because you know our audience being coaches and trainers when they're thinking about helping their teams set goals or even their participants set goals, I think a lot of times you know the passion for the job, or finding that passion and then applying your skill set to that passion can be a really, really promising pathway forward to finding purpose in your work. What is it? What's the experience like as you help that young person navigate? What are the? What are some of the stages, maybe, that they go through? Uh, because you mentioned you know they may be surprised. What are some of those stages that they may go through that we can watch out for as a trainer or a coach to help us navigate, to make sure that we're on the right path of training and coaching in the right direction.

Curtis Butler:

Well, and I know these are topics very near and dear to your heart, but there's so much psychology and human behavior involved here and that's a huge part of what I do. It's about really actually just being there for the person, knowing that I'm a trusted advisor for them, first and foremost, and helping them understand that this could be because you're moving from what you had understood to be the path and what may have been comfortable, at least in your mind, to the unknown or to something that you now is new to you. How do I even proceed down that path? And that's why it's helpful to have the guide right. The name of my company is Guided Ascent Coaching, like assuming.

Curtis Butler:

The whole job search process is like an Everest expedition and we can work together at the beginning of the trek and I can show you how all of your equipment works and give you a map and point you to the mountain. But that may not lead to the successful outcome you're hoping for, and it does help to have someone guide you along the path who can help when obstacles come up or you come upon a crevasse or the weather changes right which is what a job search really does right and helping someone who's been there, been in the meeting, that interview room hundreds or thousands of times, hired many people, led teams. That kind of trusting advice really does help take them from this fear of the unknown to believing wow, this guy isn't going to steer me wrong, he's seen it all before. And most importantly and I think this is one of the things that makes me a little bit different as a coach is I see you, I'm not speaking generically. There's plenty of generic advice I can give, and I give a lot of that on LinkedIn and Facebook right.

Curtis Butler:

Yeah, but the one-on-one engagements or even the small group engagements, it's about seeing the individuals where their strengths lie, and those strengths are career-wise. But also, what do we really need to work on to get you ready for those interviews? Or writing isn't necessarily your strong suit, so let's spend a little bit more time helping you understand why I'm recommending the resume and cover letter changes that I'm recommending, and it's really the trust in that partnership is absolutely essential. This is not just some guy who's clocking in right. I am there for you and I'm going to be there as for as much of that, that path as you want me to be, and I'm going to celebrate those victories with you. But you're familiar with this that my favorite text to get of all is Curtis. The interview went really well. They offered me the job.

Jay Johnson:

That's amazing. Well, and I think what you're speaking to is something so important for trainers and coaches and HR managers and managers alike, right, Like when you're walking into a space, whether you're training a large group, a small group, whether you're standing on stage, you know some, some of the people in the audience are going to be sitting there and going great, you're here for a couple of hours, You're here for a half day, You're here for a full day and then you're going to be gone and I'm going to be left with a mess and I'm eight hours behind. But when you're building that sort of like relationship and you are positioning yourself as that trusted guide, I lean back into an analogy. You use the Everest analogy, which I love. I think about this. I do a lot of like survival training and I I'll go out into the woods for five days, no water, no food, and you know, just see what the survival is like. It's a lot of fun. I really enjoy it.

Jay Johnson:

A lot of people don't even know that about me. But you know, one of the ways that I talk about training is what we end up doing is we go into a place. We tell them this is what the gear looks like, this is what you should do, this is how you should do it. And then we drop them off on the edge of the forest and say, okay, good luck, go survive. And most people are going to go. What? In a two hour timeframe. There's no way that you taught me what I needed to do to go survive five days.

Curtis Butler:

And do you have a?

Jay Johnson:

recording of all that. Yeah Right, so you know, when we think about this, positioning ourselves as that trusted guide, that somebody that's going to walk us in and say, okay, now we need to focus on building a fire, now we need to focus on this. Oh look, the wind's here and the rain's going to come down this hill. This is why we need to think about this, such a powerful thing. Now, what has been your experience? No-transcript.

Curtis Butler:

Well, I love that question because it's one of the reasons that I have focused on the younger cohort, because they bring to the equation a lot fewer biases and certainly no career baggage, right and bad experiences on the job that may make them hesitant to go back into that same space. Students tend to be much more open. Young people in general, I find, are more open to the advice of a veteran than young people who cares about them, because that makes sense. I work, I work with career centers all the time and and they say you know, alumni come around all the time, they give talks, but it's, it's like you were saying before, it's, it's good advice, but it doesn't feel like you're really in it. For me, you're just giving platitudes and, and so one of the ways to to avoid those obstacles or some of those pushbacks, is to catch people when they still are open-minded and recognize that what you're giving them is gold relative to where they are, because it's not just generic advice. You get out on the internet hearing you, seeing your resume, the way you present yourself, the way you speak, the way you write, the way you talk about your passions, the way you talk about things you don't care as much about. We are really homing in on you in the future, so I think that helps avoid a lot of those crevasses and obstacles in the way.

Curtis Butler:

I will say, though, that and I talk to parents in every opportunity I can get the best thing that parents can do for their children who are young job seekers, college students looking for internships or full-time jobs, is not to add pressure on top of what is already remarkably anxiety-provoking, which is that job search and the ticking clock of graduation, which is that job search and the ticking clock of graduation. And I've talked to students whose parents have said look, you have a coach, or you don't have a coach, but I trust you. You'll come to me when you need me. We're not going to put extra pressure on you. We're here if you need us.

Curtis Butler:

It's remarkable to see the difference between those two young people. One is completely overcome by fear and the other is more relaxed about it and can become, you know, generate more of a sense of confidence, and you've experienced this through what you do with podcasts. Nothing comes across a screen more easily than anxiety and nervousness, and that is not a recipe for a successful interview. So so much of what I do is confidence building, you know, like a good therapist or counselor. Right, it's reminding them how special they are. I just put a post today on linkedin talking about how incredibly special and impressive college athletes are student athletes. They have two full-time jobs. They're remarkable and they don't know it I was.

Jay Johnson:

They don't know how special they are I was a competitive debater in the university and did that for scholarship and, quite frankly, I ended up having to give up my hockey career and my grades suffered because I put so much energy into that, plus having a job, plus trying to live, plus trying to do all of the other things. Yeah, I feel that, and I think one of the things that really kind of stood out to me that when you were talking was when I was, when I was younger in my career, a lot of people would ask me how did you build up this training company? Or how did you do this, how did you do this? And I would speak from my experience. My networks, my abilities were very different than the people that were not better, not worse, just different, and my upbringing was different. Yeah, exactly.

Jay Johnson:

So me standing there and telling you how my pathway looked, maybe that's going to resonate with some people that maybe have some of those shared backgrounds, some of those shared experiences, but the rest of the 80 or 90% of the people in the audience, they're going to go. Well, you know I've got more resources than you, or some are going to go, I've got less resources than you, and that really doesn't land with me and I love that concept of really kind of meeting people where they're at. That's what I'm doing with my coaching with trainers and coaches right now. Is each session really working on?

Jay Johnson:

What is your biggest challenge? What's your issue? To hear that the students are more open and they don't have as much of that baggage and resilience or resistance is so empowering. I'm glad to hear that because a lot of times when we find ourselves in adult training situations, there's a lot of people we've tried that before, we've done this before, this doesn't work, et cetera and that can be really frustrating as a trainer or a coach. It's just like, yeah, but you didn't try it right.

Curtis Butler:

And it's. It's so interesting what you, what you mentioned about your experience being applicable or not applicable. I had a student reached out to me on LinkedIn, which I encourage everyone to do. Right, a simple LinkedIn when you're, when you're trying to do your networking, and just ask for five minutes, don't say let's meet for lunch, right, five minutes. But she said I'd love to hear about your career. And I wrote her back be happy to talk to you. We're not talking about my career, we're talking about yours. And she signed up with me right away because she said that's how I knew you were different. It wasn't talking about what you've done exactly to the point you made that worked for me and my combination of talents and, frankly, luck, all those things that have happened that have nothing to do with you. I want to talk about you.

Jay Johnson:

Well and that's a big challenge that I see with a lot of professional speakers they get up and they tell their story, which in many cases is so inspiring or so empowering, and people leave there and they're like I'm ready to take on the world. And then they realize they don't have a map, they don't have a game plan, they don't have a goal. They just they were like wow, this person came overcame incredible odds. That doesn't mean that everybody that's in that situation, if you look at it on a larger probability, most people in their situation probably didn't make it. And to get up and be like I was able to do this and no one else has, or you know, and you can too.

Jay Johnson:

That's the survivor bias, right. Yeah, you know sometimes that that can be a little disempowering because other people go gosh, I don't even have that impediment and I'm struggling. Or I do have that impediment and I've not been able to keep that kind of positive attitude that you have. So I think it can be inspiring. But one of the things I talk about a lot on this show is having knowledge does not mean it leads to action. Being inspired or motivated doesn't mean it leads to the positive outcomes that we're going for. So let's dig into that just a little bit, if we can. Curtis. How do you get them to essentially act? How do you get them to behave? You know, what is it that you're doing? Is there nudges? Is there prompts? Is there encouragement that really says okay, now take this knowledge that we've explored together, that's custom for you, and act on it. Go send out those resumes, go send out that. What is it that? That secret sauce that gets people to behave in a way that's going to bring them to success?

Curtis Butler:

A lot of it is the self-motivation, the drive of a particular individual that is beyond our control as coaches. But another advantage to working with the younger folks is they don't want to disappoint you. So you say look, we have our next meeting next Monday. Between now and Monday, I need you to make those resume edits. I want you to come up with your own draft of you know that 300-character LinkedIn outreach for your networking and I have these assignments for them. The good thing is they're in school, so they're used to assignments, but I have these assignments for them. And they thing is they're in school, so they're used to assignments, but I have these assignments for them.

Curtis Butler:

And they know that and respect the fact and I think this is probably generally true, not just for young people they respect the fact that their coach's time is valuable as well. So for us to show up for them and the homework not be done isn't really productive and they risk undermining that relationship. So I haven't run into that so very often. But to the point earlier about you only want to offer as much coaching as people want to have. So if somebody says you know what, I think I'm good, I think I'm ready, I think I'm ready to tackle the mountain on my own.

Jay Johnson:

Why fly out of that nest? That's right.

Curtis Butler:

It's your job to let them right Now they may come back and say, wow, that didn't work. Like, yeah, I thought so.

Jay Johnson:

I hit the ground, curtis, let's give it another go.

Curtis Butler:

So many hikers who are more experienced than you were into that same problem. Don't beat yourself up about it. Right, I said the same thing. Like students say, are so disappointed in themselves for not getting that really glorious, headline-grabbing internship. And I say you're one of thousands of candidates for that specific job who's telling the same story, so be kind to you, right, we're going to find something that's appropriate for you. Don't you worry, because, as I said, worry is the enemy of the job search.

Jay Johnson:

And I want to pull out some insight there that I think could be really, really valuable. What I heard and what it sounds to me like is you're giving them these sort of I don't want to call them micro assignments but like, hey, write a 300 word tagline for this. That's. That's not a huge ask. That's asking them to take one small behavioral step and, realistically, students nowadays know that they can go to Gemini or they can go to chat GPT, get a good headstart on it, then modify it or whatever else. So it's not even that much effort. And it sounds to me like you're getting them to do these sort of micro assignments that get them towards the larger goal of climbing the mountain. So don't don't climb the mountain, yet Take the first step. Is that, is that an accurate portrayal of what you're kind of working with?

Curtis Butler:

100%. So everyone, I have various plans that people can sign up for. It's about intensity how many sessions that you want to have, but every single person who works with me gets the same first three sessions, which is all about getting you ready to actually start the hike. So what I want to avoid is students, and especially recent grads, applying for jobs that are really good for them without the right equipment, and it's so common Like I applied to 20 jobs this week. Oh no, we have a lot of work to do on your resume. So so that's what I'm hoping they can avoid, and I hope it's a message to parents as well, like help.

Curtis Butler:

You know, young people can't necessarily see the value in that distant future of how much this will pay off.

Curtis Butler:

Even if your coach can save you one month of a job search, if you're going in finance or engineering, that's $100,000 salary One month is more than $8,000 of money earned or not earned, and my plans are far less expensive than that.

Curtis Butler:

But I think it's really important that everyone has that basic skill building so that they not only have the right tools to apply for a job, but also the confidence so important is to a job search I talk about. There's going to be a book eventually, but a huge part of my coaching and I think this will resonate with a lot of your coaches and trainers is about helping young people build confident humility. To me, it's the absolute key to a successful job search, especially a successful interview interview the confidence of being able to share and convey that I have the skills required to do this job and I'm the right person for this job. But the humility to recognize I'm still young, I don't have a lot of experience, I have a ton to learn, I would love to learn to adhere, and that is a hiring manager's dream, sure.

Jay Johnson:

I love that confident humility and part of the reason is is so often and this happens pretty perpetually I'm invited to come in to give a talk to a sales team about sales and some of my first questions right up front is how long have they been salespeople? What's their experience? Have they had good years? What does a good year look like for them? And I get some of that information because most of the time when I'm asked to come into sales, what is the business objective? They want more sales.

Jay Johnson:

If I'm looking at your sales team and collectively they've got 100 years of experience. They've all had great years and sometimes they have slump years. You're not asking me to come in and do sales training and sales techniques and how to write an email and how to cold call or anything else like that. What you're asking me is help them find their confidence, help them overcome whatever their personal barriers, because salesperson A's barrier is going to be very different than salesperson B's barrier. Maybe they're in a slump, maybe their scripts are out of date or maybe their approach is just they've been rejected too many times and it's starting to burn them out. So maybe we don't need a sales training, maybe we need something for burnout, or maybe we need something for confidence.

Jay Johnson:

So I love this concept of building that confidence because most cases and I say this, most cases, especially when it comes to soft skills people know how to manage conflict. They know how to. They know how to manage people, they know how to communicate. They know how to do these things. Yeah, there's always tips and tactics, but in reality, sometimes it's just a question of giving them permission or giving them the ability to say you're on a journey, you know these skills, here's a couple of new tactics, but here's the confidence that you need to implement these and trust that it's going to lead to the outcomes you want.

Curtis Butler:

I love that what's limiting you right.

Jay Johnson:

In these four walls.

Curtis Butler:

You can tell me what's limiting you, because together we can get over that.

Jay Johnson:

You know, and when we create that sort of customized approach to those individuals, yeah, they feel empowered, but it also that is and I agree with you, curtis, that is that sort of key to behavioral change. So you know, we try to as we're looking at this. What advice and you know we'll kind of wrap this up and I love asking this question sort of at the end what advice would you give to those coaches, those trainers, those HR managers, even the managers or mentors in an organization? What advice something that you've picked up along the way to really be that effective agent for behavioral change?

Curtis Butler:

I think of a few things that come to mind that are extremely important there. Number one is you have to gain their trust before you can really serve them. So you gain the trust if you're the manager or if you're a coach, over time, through the relationship. And part of gaining that trust and I think this is going to be the hardest part I've experienced this in my career through other managers and leaders is the challenge of giving proper, constructive feedback and very frank feedback. Sometimes because it's a risk. You don't want to say something that somebody might take the wrong way, right, you don't want to sound like you're judging them. But what I've found my entire life, and certainly my whole career and in my coaching, is that I will say the thing to a student that no one else has said before. I have said, for example here's something we need to work on. You talk at 1.5 speed. We need to dial that down. It's distracting, it's actually irritating. We you and I will work on that.

Curtis Butler:

I'm not just telling you that I'm not just saying that and walking away. We are going to double up the time that we spend practice interviewing. You're going to put a post-it on your screen that says slow down and you'll see it in testimonials on the website. You know, one of these students said that was the key. I was getting no traction. But curtis told me something that nobody else did, because you have to be a little bit brave to do that and the relationship has to be established. So I couldn't do that at a podium. Pick somebody out in the audience, tell them you're, you're talking 50 too fast. That would be. That would not go very well for either of us. But in a trusted relationship the entire goal is their success 100%. So if that's going to help them succeed, I'll take the risk and give them that frank feedback.

Jay Johnson:

And I think that's so important, right, because you're building that relationship by standing next to them rather than being the prophet that's standing on top of the mountain and screaming it down. And if you're a coach, if you're a trainer, really, what are you doing to focus on building trust with your audience, whether that's an individual, a small group, a large group or even an packed auditorium of people? How are you positioning yourself as standing next to them, rather than necessarily standing on top of them or standing over them? I love that. Any other thoughts, curtis?

Curtis Butler:

Yeah, I think the only other thing is I think for me, as a former leader and manager of teams, if you showed proper compassion for everyone you work with and that they feel comfortable coming to you with challenges and the results isn't oh, you should have done X, it's that kind of stuff happens. Let's move on from there. How do we pivot? And it's the same with the students that I coach Something goes wrong in their job search. They come back to me saying they blew an interview. I say erase, move on. That I can't tell you. You want me to tell you the 10 times that happened to me.

Curtis Butler:

Right, it just make them feel super comfortable being human and and from the vantage point of someone really experienced, like you or me you're going to get past it. You just probably learned a ton from it. It doesn't have to happen again and it doesn't make you a bad person. So, the combination of the trusting relationship that allows for frank feedback, candid feedback and the compassion to help them move on from struggles or failure. And the compassion to help them move on from struggles or failure, because that's ultimately, if you learn how to take that resilience, if you learn how to take those setbacks and rebound quickly and the next one's a success. That's the key to the confidence, right. And then, before the major interview that they're preparing for, what I love is we get really into the weeds and get them ready for that specific interview and I say, how do you feel? He's like I'm excited, I'm excited for that interview, not what you typically hear, but that's what that relationship can do.

Jay Johnson:

And that's amazing, and I think that's a universally powerful piece of advice, right Like helping people navigate their failures, overcoming those objections, barriers, resistance, helping them understand, hey, the world doesn't end if we fail at this task. That's an opportunity to learn and grow, something I think that every coach trainer can take away from here. So thank you for that, curtis, and thank you for joining us on today's show.

Curtis Butler:

I really appreciate it, Jay. I really appreciate the interview and the time.

Jay Johnson:

Curtis, where can people get in touch with you if they're looking for any kind of career coaching? What would be a good place? What social media or website or email, whatever you're comfortable with? We'll make sure we put it in the show notes, but go ahead.

Curtis Butler:

Sure, so the name of the company is Guided Ascent Career Coaching. That's a mouthful. Like I said, it's that Everest expedition. But you can find me on the web at www. guidedascentcoaching. com, or you can find me on LinkedIn, just as myself, and there's a click link from the website.

Jay Johnson:

Amazing. Thanks, Curtis. We appreciate you Take care.

Curtis Butler:

Thanks, Jay.

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