The Talent Forge: Shaping the Future of Training and Development with Jay Johnson

Transforming Legal Training: Best Practices for Compliance and Engagement with Matthew Fornaro

• Jay Johnson

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Unlock the keys to legal compliance in talent development with our featured guest, Matthew Fornaro, a seasoned attorney who specializes in guiding small and medium-sized businesses through their legal frameworks. Discover how Matthew transforms mundane legal training into engaging learning experiences using PowerPoint presentations, real-life scenarios, and interactive Q&A sessions. He provides invaluable insights into the necessity of comprehensive employee and operations manuals, and the critical importance of staying current with labor laws at every level. Matthew's practical approach ensures businesses can avoid legal pitfalls and stay compliant with industry standards.

Grasp the significance of a well-defined organizational structure and standardized procedures to effectively manage business issues. Matthew discusses the power of clear and accessible documentation, from detailed manuals to handy cheat sheets, ensuring all team members understand their roles. He also shares best practices for structuring legal training, emphasizing the importance of breaking down complex topics into digestible segments to maintain engagement. For coaches, trainers, and HR professionals, Matthew offers actionable tips on communicating intricate legal matters without overwhelming your audience, making this episode a treasure trove of practical advice.

Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com

Jay Johnson:

Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge, and today we've got a special guest, Matthew Fornaro. Welcome to the show, Matthew.

Michael Fornaro:

Thanks for having me, Jay.

Jay Johnson:

Now, Matthew, you are a unique guest so far on the Talent Forge. You come in with a legal background and we know that a lot of organizations you know have legal training and well, we're going to dig into that. But why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself and how you got into this talent development space?

Michael Fornaro:

Sure. So I am a licensed attorney down here in South Florida. I'm also licensed in DC and my focus of my practice is helping small and medium-sized business with their legal needs, whether it's litigation, transactional, whatever it happens to be, and it's part of that panacea of what I do for my clients. Part of that intersects with talent development.

Jay Johnson:

Now I'm thinking about this and, Matthew, let me tell you, I've been in a lot of organizations and when somebody says, hey, we have this training on this legal issue and it's going to be a one hour training or a two hour training or whatever else I generally don't hear a whole lot of. I can't wait to get to this. So you know, talk me through what is? How do you approach that? Because, and whether it's in the legal profession, whether it's in accounting, whether it's in, whether it's in leadership, there's going to always be audience members that are going to be interested audience members, not? How do you manage that process? Uh, when you're giving those types of talks or coaching?

Michael Fornaro:

well, you know it's a challenge because, like you said, most people aren't too thrilled about hearing about legal regulations or what they have to do or how they have to report incidents at work or something like that. So you know, but I mean the information is required and necessary. In some cases you actually have to tell your employees in an organized format. You know, one of the things I like to do is, if I have to come in and give a presentation on something like that, I mean I try to keep it interesting, you know, and have as many you know, moving parts and stuff to keep people's interest. I have like a PowerPoint and I try to make it interactive by having question and answer session and I try to have good examples of real things that have happened that are interesting, that people would find like, wow, I can't believe that's an actual real thing. And then another thing is that you know, as part of my representation of you know the business, I mean one of the things I always say is that the business has to have I don't care if it's just you in a desk in a cubicle somewhere or whatever you have to have an employee or manual or an operating manual for your business, to have all your rules and all your things in one space so that, objectively, there's no question as to what your obligations are and what your duties are as an employee and what your responsibilities are and what applies to you and what doesn't apply to you. So I like to also have like that in place and then we can go through the book.

Michael Fornaro:

Do you have any questions? I hope you read it ahead of time because I asked you to. I'll answer all your questions. Let's go over it. So those are the kind of things I try to do to keep it interesting. Obviously, no matter what you do, there's always going to be people who don't pay attention because they're on their phone or you know they're sleeping or whatever it is. They may do, but it helps the majority of the people and then I always let them I mean, if they have questions or whatever they can contact their management or their HR people. Or if it's cool with the company, they can contact me directly with their follow-up questions, or their superiors can contact me. So I try to keep it interactive like that.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, and I can imagine, you know, when we're thinking about legal issues, there's so many different things. Whether you're a small business owner, whether you're a big corporation, there's so many different things that can potentially get you into hot water. So there's no small lack, you know, and a lot of people, I'm sure, think of things like sexual harassment or safety, or systems or processes, et cetera. You know all the fairness. So what would be, as, as you're, as you're thinking about what are some of the most important legal topics that you think that a talent development department needs to be kind of keeping all of the employees up on?

Michael Fornaro:

Well, they have to make sure that they're up on, obviously, all labor and employment laws, both at the federal and state level, because that's always that's 100 percent an issue that's going to affect everyone at all times. You got to make sure that you're compliant with whatever local regulations there are, whatever trade standards there are, industry standards, things like that. As far as the organization itself, the organization itself, outside of the talent, has to make sure that they have their governing documents in place, like I mentioned, the employee or the operations manual. They have to have their corporate bylaws or their LLC operating agreement that says how everything operates and things like that. And everyone has to be informed and know like actually review the materials and be up on the materials and know what their responsibilities and obligations are as part of being an employee at a company.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah. So let's go back to something you said you keep it interactive. That's one of the ways that you keep the engagement on a topic that, like I said, a lot of the people in the audience may go oh God, why am I having to sit here, why do I have to go through this? Even though it's required, even though it's part of the law, even though it's a necessity and, quite frankly, even though it is good for them and it's probably going to keep them out of trouble, they're still going to have that. I don't have time for this.

Jay Johnson:

So, as you're keeping it interactive, I got to imagine maybe even asking questions or anything else. You probably get some answers to your questions that are just way out there or way wrong or way off. How do you approach that when somebody you know because that's that's a challenge for a lot of facilitators, a lot of trainers you know they don't know how to handle it when somebody gets a question wrong and when it comes to law, I know there's so many nuances I can imagine a lot of people don't quite get it right when they're answering a question. How does that? How does that play out for you?

Michael Fornaro:

Yeah, there's. You know, when you try to do something interactive review, question and answer kind of session, there's always, you know, I want to say like a smart aleck out there who gives like a intentionally gives a dumb answer or, you know, a challenging answer. But then there's people who are legitimately they give bad or bizarre answers, legitimately because that's what they think. So I think one of the things I try to do is pivot away from what they said and then go towards the truth.

Michael Fornaro:

Like you know I'll be like can you, you know, tell me about what do you think about this? And you know they'll be like oh, I think you should do whatever. And I'll be like well, you know, jay, that's interesting. I'm glad we have your perspective on that. How about if we thought about it this way? Or how about if we apply the actual law to it and we discuss it like that way and I kind of try to re-pivot and take the focus off their not so great answer and then give them like the actual, correct information that they need and then hopefully it sinks in and they're not like well, I can, you know, set off fireworks in the break room or whatever it is you know they thought they could do, or something like that.

Jay Johnson:

Funny story about that, Matthew. There was a so an organization that I was uh one of the leadership and JCI USA. Um, in the bylaws of that organization it explicitly was written that they could not set off fireworks in the hotel after the successful election of a president. I was like, if that rule is in there, that means somebody did it before. And they probably didn't talk to Matthew for an hour.

Michael Fornaro:

Yeah, that's definitely something we acted. Most of your special stuff in those instructions and those manuals is always because it really happened one day and no one thought about it.

Jay Johnson:

So let's take that as sort of a topic area. The law is obviously super expansive. We're never going to be able to know as a layperson, I'm never going to be able to know all the different aspects that could or could not get me into trouble or could keep me out of trouble, and I'm certain that, even as a legal representative. This is why different is why you know different areas have different specialties and research and all of that. So the expectation is not everybody's going to know everything. What would be your advice or how would you help an organization, sort of how would you train them to think about things that maybe they don't know or that aren't getting covered? What would be? You know, this is sort of that catch-all. You know, when I'm doing leadership training, at the end I'm like, okay, and if this occurs, this is how you want to think about it. What are maybe some of the approaches that you take to prepare people for the unexpected or the unknown?

Michael Fornaro:

Yeah, I mean first I would kind of like we talked about a couple of minutes ago I would start at the top and look at the actual organization, like the president, the vice president, the manager, whatever go over what their roles are, what they do, what their governing documents say about their business. If they have governing documents, that's a big, that's another big topic. They don't have them, so then we have to put them in place or we have to make sure that they're actually robust and they say how the business is run and what happens. Then we kind of work our way down from there to departments and then people in departments, and then work our way down to employees and just be like, okay, here's what, and that's part of like the manual.

Michael Fornaro:

They should have a, you know, should have like a schematic of how your business is organized, who's at the top and then who you know, this person's in charge of this person, this person's in charge of this person, and then you know if you have a problem, here's your HR person or here's your whatever person and here's the format that you take problems to and here's the format on how those problems are objectively and uniformly addressed and resolved, as opposed to, you know like capriciously or subjectively or something like that, and just go through the whole thing from top to bottom, and I mean that's as time consuming and as much of you know a pain as it is.

Michael Fornaro:

I mean that's how it's got to be done in order to do it correctly. So if you don't do that holistic approach and you leave something for chance, then it's going to happen, and then you might as well. You wasted your time by doing all this stuff on the top, because down here it's chaos and no one knows what's going on. So that's why you got to make sure from the top to the bottom. Everyone knows what the rules are, Everyone knows how to play by the rules and everyone knows what the solutions are if there's issues.

Jay Johnson:

I love that. So let's talk about communication here, right? Because communication is such a nuanced aspect and you know, words matter, as we know, and when you're looking at law they particularly matter. So, as you're training in something that can be so specific and I know, like a lot of our people that watch the show, you know that listen to the show or watch the show on YouTube. They are trainers and they may be very technical. They may be talking about OSHA standards, they could be talking about manufacturing safety, they could be talking about a number of different things that are highly technical, in depth and very, very precise. How do you make sure that your message is being communicated in a way that, essentially, you know, most of the audience and I'm not going to say 100% of the audience understands it, but how do you really make sure that something that can be so technical and so nuanced really resonates or gets through in a meaningful way to that audience?

Michael Fornaro:

through in a meaningful way to that audience. Well, you try to present the message as simply as possible but make it understandable. So maybe we have, you know, like we'll have the official manual and then we'll have like the cheat sheet version where it's like the CliffsNotes, yeah, like the quick version of. I have a problem with this. So I go here and go there and try to work out like a schematic, kind of like flow chart thing. Going on is one way to do that where, ok, I don't have you know.

Michael Fornaro:

It's like when you buy something and there's instructions on how to assemble it, there's the big book and then there's the Ikea picture that shows how to do it.

Michael Fornaro:

So you try to give people the ikea picture where they can go to the big book and get all the answers. But if they're you know bare minimum, you can go look at the schematic or the picture or whatever and figure out that you know the two ends go like this and you put the screw in that way as opposed to oh, I guess I'll just not do it or I'll do it wrong. So you try to simplify it as much as possible. And then you also try to have as much open, transparency and communication as possible, where if someone has a question, they can go to the person in their organization who has the answer or can point them in the direction of the answer, and then, if the person in the organization doesn't, maybe it's their outside attorney, their accountant, their, you know, it people, whoever has the answer, and then they can provide them with the answer. So it's kind of like a holistic approach like that.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, it sounds a lot like teaching them to fish and also giving them a fish at the same time, so that's a pretty, pretty nice approach. I've spent many a times getting frustrated at IKEA directions, frustrated and a few bottles of wine into a couple of those Ikea builds. Now, I love the concept and I think that's a great takeaway. Right, when you're working with something complex, try to make it as simple as possible, try to keep it to its core piece and then provide that additional information. So I'm going to dig into that just a moment. Information, so I'm going to dig into that just a moment. How do you, you know, with this technical information, what kind of, what kind of approach do you take with, say, handouts, leave behinds? Do you have, you know, cheat sheets, documents? What does that look like for you and what are you thinking about when you're designing those documents?

Michael Fornaro:

Yeah, like I have, obviously the show to third parties for compliance purposes version, which is the all the bells and whistles and everything I have like the cheat sheet of you know, I don't know I, if I have a question about insurance, who do I call? Answer you know, jay, if I have a question about you know, whatever, who do I call? Or who do I email? Answer Blah, blah, blah. So I try to make it as like I have the big version where you can go to for all the answers and then I try to just make a quick version of if you have a issue, if you have this issue then contact this person, kind of thing, where you know you don't have to read the entire book to figure out. Oh, I have a problem with you. Know my hourly pay, let me call whoever so.

Jay Johnson:

Well, I love that too, because I am definitely not going to.

Jay Johnson:

You know, and we talk a lot about like behavioral, you know, behavioral drives and one of mine is, you know, very driven to acquire.

Jay Johnson:

I will probably not look at all the details, but I will look at that cheat sheet and I will find what it is to get me to where I need to be. So I love that kind of approach. You know, when we think about, when we think about topics like law and we think about, you know any of the complex topics, one of the things that I'm certain you know as you walk into that space, can you talk to me a little bit about, like, how does it feel when, cause they could be asking, you know an audience member could be asking a question that's out of your field, maybe you don't have a good answer to, maybe you don't know and you'd rather research that? And I think a lot of our audience is probably again experienced something similar where you know they, they know a lot, they're clearly subject matter experts, but we know that sometimes those questions can come out of left field and catch us awry. How do you handle that when maybe somebody is asking something that we don't have a good answer to in that moment.

Michael Fornaro:

Yeah, you know, I obviously know what I'm capable of doing and not doing, and that's you know. I don't want to sound self-righteous but that's very important because I don't venture into areas where I shouldn't be in in the law. And I bring in for my clients, I bring in specialists or other attorneys who focus on those areas when it's outside, you know, my wheelhouse or whatever you want to call it, to assist them. So if someone has a super specific employment question where you know I have, you know, like I know, about employment law or whatever, but we're super like, we're talking, like you know, osha compliance, thousands of pages of the manual level, osha compliance, thousand page of the manual, I'll be like, well, that's a great question. Um, I would refer you to, you know.

Michael Fornaro:

And then if they really want, I mean I'll refer them to an attorney who specializes solely, whose attorney's entire practice is just OSHA compliance. That's literally all the attorney does. So I'll bring in those specialists for my clients when we have those issues that arise, because I want them to get the best information possible for them to make the best business decision possible on what they're doing. And then, if it's like at a Q&A session where someone's asking something super specific. I'll just tell them, like that's a great question. I don't know the specific answer, but if you want to know the answer or whatever I can, you know, refer you to someone afterwards, come up to me or give me an email and I'll give you the information if you really want the answer.

Jay Johnson:

Well, and I think that's so important because, especially like trainers that are early in their career, I've seen them try to answer questions it's definitely either out of scope, out of topic, out of context, are out of their expertise wheel, and then answer the question and go. You know I'm sitting there and going, oh, that's, that's not going to, that's, that's not going to yield the result that you're hoping it's going to yield. So I love the concept of being confident and saying, hey, I know my stuff, this is my wheelhouse, this is what I'm going to answer for you. If not, I'll find you the right person. Beautiful, um, you know from a, from a large level, and, and when we're thinking about, when we're thinking about legal training, what do you find? Or legal training, or even like and again, kind of applying it to the larger complex, you know deep training training, or even like and again, kind of applying it to the larger complex, you know deep training.

Jay Johnson:

How do you structure your time? Do you do this like, maybe, in half hour sessions and full day sessions? You know what does that look like? How do you make sure? Because I mean, some of this can be really in depth, it can take a lot of cognitive thought, it can take a lot of exhaust. You know like it could be exhausting to kind of nuance through some of those different pieces. You know like it could be exhausting to kind of nuance through some of those different pieces. How do you, you know, in that sort of like larger framework, what do you find to be one of your best practices in setting time or scope for these types of trainings or talks?

Michael Fornaro:

I try to break it up into multiple sessions and try to keep it as short as possible Because, like I said, you're going to lose the average person's attention span after X amount of minutes. So we don't need an eight-hour day together where you know hour eight, we're lucky, we're alive, let alone going to take off. So I'd much rather I don't want to take up your time, I don't want to, you know, feel like you're wasting your time. But I'd much rather give you a few small, bite-sized nuggets than just try to inundate you with everything at one sitting and it's going to be a disaster. So I'd much rather spread it out over time, once a month, once, whatever it takes, and then we'll go over it and make sure we do it right, as opposed to be, like, well, from 9 am to 5 pm today, other than one hour lunch break. You're mine, you know that's not how I approach those things.

Michael Fornaro:

That's not how I approach those things.

Jay Johnson:

No, and I love that we talk a lot. We've actually had some conversations with micro learning experts on the show that will even tell you hey, if you can do this in bite sized chunks, if you can do it in small sessions spread out over time, you get a much better chance of it being sticky and staying with them and that they're actually going to shift behavior. So, Matthew, as we're kind of coming to the end of our time here, I want to ask you do you have any last tips that you want to share with our audience of coaches, trainers, hr people on how to really think about giving you know, giving talks on some of these complex type topics?

Michael Fornaro:

Yeah, I mean just keep it as you know. First of all, have your written materials. You don't want to wing it, you don't want to do whatever. Have supporting written materials that you can hand out so that, um, you know it goes along with your presentation. I mean, just like I was just saying, you want to make it as compact and as informative as possible. You don't want it to go meandering around, you don't want it to go on and on and just if you need to do it, break it down into multiple sessions, as opposed to one big session. Coach, because your client or your employees or your people know that every other Tuesday, from 10 to 12, we're going to have whatever training or whatever, versus next Friday all day long. It's a bootcamp and you don't want to do that. So I think that's a much better approach for people to take.

Jay Johnson:

I love it. Some awesome takeaways from this conversation. Keep it simple, Make sure that you are providing the resources for them to dig in deeper, making sure that you know you're breaking it up so that way it's not something that is absolutely hitting them over the head, you know, for four hours straight, because nobody's going to be able to tolerate that on any topic. So great takeaways here, Matthew. How would our audience get in touch with you if they wanted to reach out and connect?

Michael Fornaro:

Sure, so the best way to get in touch with me is to go to my website, which is for fornaro legal. com, which is my last name, F O R N A RO legal. com, and that has the links to all my social media. I'm on all social media. It's got all my contact information, it's got my videos that pretty much answer a lot of business law questions, it's got my blogs that answer even more business law questions and it's got links to other podcasts and things like that. So it's pretty informative at this point for you to be able to answer a lot of your initial questions and then, if not, just contact me.

Jay Johnson:

Incredible. Thank you, Matthew, so much for your insights on the show on the Talent Forge. We really appreciate you being with us today.

Michael Fornaro:

All right. Thank you for having me, Jay. I had a good time.

Jay Johnson:

Awesome, and thank you, audience for listening. Stay tuned for the next episode, take care.

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Jay Johnson, CEO and Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements

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