The Talent Forge: Shaping the Future of Training and Development with Jay Johnson
Welcome to The Talent Forge! Where we are shaping the future of training and development
I am your host, Jay Johnson. Through my 20+ years as a coach, trainer, and leader, I have seen the best and the worst of talent development across the globe. That has inspired and compelled me to create a show that helps other professionals like me navigate the challenging waters of growing people.
The Talent Forge isn't your typical tips and tricks podcast. We delve deeper, explore the future, and pioneer new thinking to help our audience achieve transformation with their programs and people.
In each episode, we talk with industry thought leaders, dissect real-world case studies, and share actionable strategies to help you future-proof your training programs. Whether you're a seasoned L&D professional or just starting out, The Talent Forge is your one-stop shop to shape a thriving learning culture within your organization.
The Talent Forge: Shaping the Future of Training and Development with Jay Johnson
Wild Horses and Leadership: Lessons in Trust and Empowerment with Shane Jacob
What can wild horses teach us about effective leadership and human relationships? Join us as we welcome the multifaceted Shane Jacob, who draws from his rich experience in the horse industry to share insightful parallels between training horses and developing human talent. Shane introduces five key principles of leadership and talent management, with a focus on the significant, often underestimated, time investment required to nurture growth. His captivating anecdotes reveal the transformative power of understanding and patience, both in horses and in people.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge, where we are shaping the future of talent development. Today, I am joined by special guest Shane Jacob. Welcome to the show, Shane.
Shane Jacob:Jay, thanks so much for having me. I appreciate the opportunity so.
Jay Johnson:Shane, can you give a little background about yourself and how you got into the talent development space to our audience?
Shane Jacob:I will. Yeah, thanks so much. I appreciate your show too. You know a lot of people don't know this about me is that I am a farrier, also known as a horseshoer, also known as a blacksmith. So a forge is something that I'm very familiar with in our industry. It used to be coal forges, now we use gas forges, but I like the name of your show.
Shane Jacob:I've, for several decades now, I've been in the horse industry in many different facets of the horse industry. I've been fortunate and blessed enough to be able to work with horses, which is what I love to be doing, and that's led me to um several things. Uh, I've I have a uh Jacob livestock, which is a retail horse feed company here in Las Vegas, nevada. Uh, and uh, we've been doing that for um, that company was established a long time ago, several more than 20 years ago. Uh, I also have an auction services company, um, where we sell personal property. It started out as a horse auction, and then I have a small coaching business too. All of these things require, you know, cooperation from people.
Jay Johnson:Yeah, absolutely so what have you learned, obviously, with all of this experience? And kind of one of the interesting things to me when I had looked at your profile and I thought it would what helps you or what tactics, strategies have you pulled from that experience to be able to bring into your coaching?
Shane Jacob:Yeah, it's an interesting subject. It's interesting in that a lot of the principles that we see, you know, let me just back up the relationship that man has with a horse is just that. It's a relationship, and, while horses are different brains than human beings, they're extremely reactive and less reasoning. However, there's so many similarities and horses display those similarities incredibly well, which is one of the things that we use when in dealing with I'll come back to a little bit of, you know, maybe making some relations to horses that are kind of interesting and fun to look at.
Shane Jacob:The first thing, that the first principle basically, we have five principles that we use with our people. Okay that we've just honed them down to five and they're pretty big, but there's five, and one is is the first one is just to know that that developing people is going to take time and maintaining. Okay, I mean, I don't. I don't hear a lot of conversation really about how much time it takes, and so what I mean by that is is to maintain, first of all, to, to acquire you, to train you and to, and then to you know, to develop you and to retain you. All of that it has to just be a cost of business and you have to know that, going in that it's, it's, you know, to make that default assumption that this is going to be something that, in order to do it well, is going to be a large time commitment right.
Jay Johnson:So I love that, because one of the things that we're challenging a little bit is hey, you know, a company holds a training. They bring somebody in two hours and at the end of the training they expect their people to just all of a sudden be able to exhibit those behaviors or those things. And I can imagine, you know, in training a horse it probably doesn't work like that. You can't do one session two hours and expect the results that you're looking for. I don't understand why we have thought that people would be any different in their learning cycle. So I love that. It's a journey, it's not a one-time event. What else you got? You said there's five.
Shane Jacob:Yeah, so that's a big one. And you're exactly right on horses. A lot of times with horses, we'll have this expectation that it's going to be X, y, z, just like you said, the same with people. I mean, if you really think about it, it's just not. It's going to require some time, or, in order to transformation and change takes place over a long period of time. This is a big one. This is one that I don't hear a lot about. You know, our five things are earth shattering, something that I've developed. I'm just giving you the way that we implement them. But this one I don't hear a lot about.
Shane Jacob:And the step, the second thing that we do with with everyone, is we attempt or our principle is is to To know, to know that you're that we, as leaders or managers, have the most influence on what's going on. So what I'm talking about is responsibility, influence on what's going on. So what I'm talking about is responsibility. So the first place that we like to look, let's just say something goes terribly wrong, or even if we're going to improve, or whatever the situation is, we attempt to develop a habit in with our managers and with me, which is an ongoing pursuit of saying hold on a minute before I start, you know, pointing the finger and talking to you and looking at all the things of why everything went wrong, the very first place that I need to realize I need to realize that the number one thing that influences the result that I get I can't control you, okay, and I can't control a horse. It's the same deal that you.
Shane Jacob:This horse has its own free will, okay, and so what he decides is going to be totally up to him, the same as someone that works here. However, inside of that, what influences it? Well, me as their direct manager, me as their employer, me as their leader, and the same goes with horse. I'm the leader, I'm going to present myself as the leader in this situation and I have a tremendous influence, and I need to really take that seriously and take a close look, first of all, and say what could I have done in this situation?
Shane Jacob:That is basically the takeaway. Is that, immediately, when something happens, that the first place that we look is right here and say what could I have done, or what could we have done as an organization to either prevent this in the future, or what could we have done as an organization to either prevent this in the future, or what could we have done in you know to have it happen? I think this is huge, because I see it overlooked a lot where we're just going down, we're bypassing that, which is so yeah, well and that's so consistent with the message.
Jay Johnson:So in in part of my elite training academy, I'm working with some trainers and I say hey, if the participants aren't doing what you need them to do after the training, that's not the participant's fault. That means that your message didn't resonate, that means that you didn't prepare that in a way that was logical, easy or functional for them. And I asked them to ask themselves two questions how did you contribute to this situation? By either what you did or by what you failed to do in order to get the result that you wanted? So I love that concept of ownership and responsibility Again something that I think all trainers, coaches, leaders, hr people really need to take and say hey, let's turn the perception inwards first and understand how did I contribute to this situation before we start going. They're not doing what they're told to do. I love that.
Shane Jacob:Right on. Yep, that's awesome, that's exactly it. The third thing this may sound, you may have a hard time with this and maybe you don't, but it might come off as sounded a little bit negative towards a person or or your horse. Your result you, you, you have to love them, and that doesn't mean that you have to agree with other people, or you don't have to agree with what your horse does either. It's the same thing, but you have to love them. And so, okay, fine, shane, what does that mean? I mean, how do we go about doing that?
Shane Jacob:And you know, when new people, when we bring new people on, the first thing that we do is we, in our initial, first meetings, it's when they come on board, we're very clear that, hey, we understand that this is a relationship and you're half of it. You know we ask you not to take a look at because your money is coming from us that we're at a different level. We're on an equal level with you as far as value as a human being, and we respect that and we know that. And also, by the way, jay, we know that if we don't provide you with what you need, you're not going to provide us with what we need, and so we just like to make that so clear and then not just say it but try to follow up with it. Another thing that we do in that I just want to talk a little bit more about that is is that you know we truly encourage communication, in that, you know, please feel that you can always talk to us about what's going on with you.
Shane Jacob:We, we attempt this is kind of a hard one, but in Lebanon, we try attempt to honor their perspective, and I heard a guest recently on your show to talk about listening. You know to listen, and she talked about listening and understand and taking the time to understand the why it's so important to give people value. Again, you don't have to agree with what they're talking about. They can give you an idea that is not relevant to your thing, but if you take the time to just honor their perspective, okay, and find out a little bit about the why of what they're trying to communicate to you, it increases connectivity and they feel value. You know this. Joe Caruso has this idea that people don't like you because of who you are, what you do. They like you because of how they feel when they're with you. Okay, this is so important as leadership, and the best way to do that is just simply to take the time to honor their perspective.
Jay Johnson:Well, and I love that concept of loving them, right, Because let's think about a loving relationship there's trust, there's open communication, there's hey, I know this person has my best interest at heart. So if they're giving me advice, if they're giving me a suggestion, if they're giving me a recommendation or something to follow, I know within my heart of hearts, because they love me, they're doing this for my best interest. Now, I may choose to do that or choose not to do that, I may take the advice or not take the advice, but at least it gets past that sort of first barrier of who is this person and why are you asking me to do this and what is it. So I can imagine that you know, as you develop the relationship, whether it's with a coaching client or even with a horse that you're training that continues to sort of build throughout that experience together. Would that be accurate, Shane?
Shane Jacob:That is accurate. You bet it's accurate. It's a great point. And you know, jay, you brought up something else in your last statement there that I didn't bring up. That's important and it is part of love and that is trust. And so what I mean by trust is to, initially, to have the courage as leaders to extend trust, trust Okay, and tell we have to go kind of out on a limb and extend trust until that trust is broken. Here's an example Well, with with horses, we have to because they feel if, if, if we feel hesitation, or if we feel fear, if we hear, feel like they're, they pick up on that and they cue and they have a negative reaction.
Shane Jacob:People, it's the same. Here's an example of what I mean extending trust. First of all, we communicate that our unit, our team, when we have a customer or a client that has an issue let's just say I get a phone call hey, shane, your manager, your guy over here, told me X, y, z, or did this or said this, or whatever the issue is the first thing that I do is I put a pause on that, okay, and then I go to our team because that's where my number one trust is until it's broken. Okay, now, this is a little bit harsh, but if a, if a client calls me, I'm just telling you my number one trust is not with you, it's with my team.
Jay Johnson:Sure.
Shane Jacob:My number one trust is with my team. So I go to my team and I say, hey, you're my first line here. We're going to have a United. You know, find out what happened here. Then we're going to present a United thing. But I always, if those people feel undermined, that you don't trust them, and sometimes you can't, you know, sometimes the trust is broken and then you have to go through all that and decide if you're going to maintain it or try to repair it, which takes time and all that. But it's so important to trust these people until the trust is broken. I think it's a huge concept. I think it's super important to the cooperation that you're going to get, because people, if they don't feel like you, trust them. I mean, that's the core of the relationship, right?
Jay Johnson:Well and I think that's smart and I know it sounds harsh where you say, hey, trust my team more than a client, but if you're not extending love and trust to your team, I guarantee the team's not extending love and trust to the client in the way that they could be. And you start that process from that center of the ripple, the stone in the pond, and then it extends outward. So I love that extension of trust and making sure that the trust isn't necessarily a gullible trust, but one that's saying, hey, we're coming at this, we want the same thing, we have the same mission, we have the same values, goals and let's operate with that as a starting point and move forward from there.
Shane Jacob:That's exactly right on, and you said it. They're going to operate the way that you trust them. They're going to operate. And let me be clear about that the fact that I trust, that I give a little more credence and a little more trust to my team, does not mean that I disvalue you. I'm just saying the first response is to come to my team and try to extend them trust to see how we can make this well. Now, if they breach the trust, we have to figure out how to put that back together. But I'll tell you in my experience, most of the time when I've established trust in the, when I've extended trust okay, and I've shown that that most of the time my trust is placed in the right spot with my closest team rather than a client, and we obviously we have to love our clients. That's not what I'm saying.
Jay Johnson:Okay, so Well. And and the interesting thing yeah, absolutely I'm the, I'm the loving the client. The interesting thing, though, is, I think sometimes, especially and maybe this has been your experience, shane, but there's been different times where a client has said something to me about their culture, about their work environment, and has been 100% honest, although that wasn't the whole truth or it wasn't everything that was going on. It was their perception of what was going on or what was being communicated. It was as honest as the information that they had and the perception that they were able to take. It didn't mean that they were lying, being dishonest or anything else.
Jay Johnson:When actually spending time with my team and evaluating, we got a very different picture. We got different data points. We got more of an objective analysis. Now I could either say, well, the client said this and I'm going to have to trust it, or I can trust my team that has done this before, that you know, we've built up that relationship and everything else, and then have maybe a difficult conversation with the client, like, hey, I understand that this is the perception, but here's what we're actually seeing and this is what we're actually undergoing and this is what our research is telling us. How does that line up with maybe what you understand and having a good coaching conversation to follow there? So I don't think it's harsh. I think it's actually a really strong point to say these are the relationships that I've cultivated and eventually those relationships that I'm cultivating extend out in a beautiful way to everybody that we serve clients, stakeholders, people on social media that hear our different thought perspectives. So I really like that. I appreciate that, shane.
Shane Jacob:You're exactly right. The client probably, most likely, just has a different perspective. They're making meaning out of what happened but it doesn't make sense to you. The opposite is okay. Or the other way of going about it is to take them, take their meaning on yourself, believe it, reprimand or do whatever you're going to do to your own person before you extend to them your primary trust and see, when you do that, if your, if your team member knows what you have communicated to this client, it is extremely damaging. Uh, if you don't give them the first line of trust, it's damaging to the relationship with your team member is what it is. Um, the uh to the relationship with your team member is what it is. Yeah, the, the our.
Shane Jacob:Out of our five pieces leadership pieces number four is just accountability. You have to hold them accountable and it's not we have to hold people accountable for the agreements that we get. You know we go about, we take pretty. I feel like we do the best of our communication to get agreements going up front. But you know it's difficult and this is one that is avoided a lot or it's easy to avoid. It's easy for me because difficult conversations are difficult.
Shane Jacob:You know having those conversations, it's really just easier to let it go or to make up excuses in our mind and kind of let the little problem linger, or give people hints to not have complete clarity Because because it, because maybe we're afraid of hurting their feelings, maybe we're worried about what the end result's going to be, maybe there's so many reasons, but really, if you take a look at it, most of those reasons are about what's going on inside of our thoughts and our hearts, about this fear that we've been out and how we feel.
Shane Jacob:A lot of times, people, I've found that I've found that to be true that when I finally uh, not finally, but when I go and do it, because I I've tried to cultivate a habit of doing the difficult things, because I know from avoiding it it's not a good idea but when I finally do it okay, when I go about doing it what I find is is that a lot of times it's received, they kind of already knew that that what this conversation need to happen, and so our deal is accountability. You know, immediately and just to make sure that we're really having clarity on the desired result, if we have the agreement, we have to have accountability, and if you don't, then it just begins chaos.
Jay Johnson:It's so important, shane, like when we think about, when we think about accountability. One of the things that we say when we're trying to help leaders understand building culture is the behaviors you tolerate, you normalize, the behaviors you reward, you reinforce and that whole not holding somebody accountable or tolerating maybe a missed deadline, or tolerating a shift or some kind of reaction, and sometimes you're right. It's just like, oh gosh, is this worth it, or do I really want to have this conversation? Or what retaliation is going to happen if I have that? Those are all internal fears and if we're allowing a behavior to exist or to go unaccounted for, essentially, we're basically saying that what you did was okay and you should continue to do so. Humans are patternistic, so I love that.
Shane Jacob:For sure. You know if I've mentioned agreements, and so we attempt to. After we feel that the training, we attempt to get an agreement. It's not always a written agreement, but at least we get a verbal agreement on the desired result. Now the goal, right, our goal is to not need to manage the means. Our goal is that you see the result clearly, you see the desired result and that you understand how to operate. You understand, basically, the rules of engagement inside of your way to the desired result. And so, therefore, I don't have to manage the means.
Shane Jacob:But let me just tell you you've probably tried this, and if you haven't, this is a time-consuming process to be able to reach that point. Because here's what usually happens People that people that are subordinates, they want to be, they want to please this, they want to do what's right, they want to, they want to impress you, they want to look good for themselves and they, and so what they'll do a lot of times is is they'll, they'll begin and they'll get to the decision point. And the decision point is this my training. I'm either not clear on my training of what to do here, or it wasn't covered, or this didn't go on, and so now I'm at a decision point. I think I should do this. Therefore, I execute okay Until we get to the point where you can manage those means that's a poor decision. And so what we're asking you to do is, unless you are 100 percent certain, when you get to the decision point, that you, that you get clarity on before you act on your assumption, because acting on those assumptions, it's your productivity just goes down and everything starts to go to hell. Here's also the difference which I don't think.
Shane Jacob:A lot of our people that we're asking, a lot of our team members they don't really understand, and it's really because we haven't told them that hey, in order to look good and increase the trust, it's not that we expect you to already know what to do, and you're brilliant because you already know what to do, and you're brilliant because you already know how to do the job, and all that In order to make this work better. When you ask for backup, it increases the trust, and here's why Because it demonstrates that you care about the result deeply, to the point that you're not going to sacrifice. Let's just say it was a bad decision, but if it would have worked out, you would have looked great, but you're not willing to do that because you care about doing it right so much you care about the result that when you get to the decision point, first of all you have the awareness. And then you get to the decision point and then you say, hey, here's where I'm at. Team leader, I'm at a place. Either I didn't get clear on the training or this wasn't covered. I don't know what to do here and then make a recommendation. Right, we always don't just like I don't know what to do, I'm stuck. I think it should be this Now, this is a total. This is bringing value. You want to bring value to an organization. Look at the thing, determine your best recommendation and then have the courage to make it, make the recommendation and get clarity.
Shane Jacob:Now, a lot of times, depending on the you know how long their level of knowledge or the depend on a lot of things. Maybe it's good, maybe it's not. So, hopefully, if the recommendation doesn't work you know we've been in business 30 years. You've been here for three days and your recommendation no, seriously. You know I'm taking your recommendation. I appreciate that. I'm going to honor your perspective, but I hope I don't want to hurt your feelings in saying that we've tried that and it didn't work.
Shane Jacob:And here's why. And let you move forward. And so those decision points coaching people to make to just stop to have the awareness instead of because sometimes it'll be, it'll happen, so fast You'll get, or people will get to the decision point hey, it looks like it should be this, and then we'll just go Okay, and a lot of times that's a wreck. And so when people are aware of that and they begin to have the awareness and then they choose to get clarity, what happens is the trust level goes up so much faster. And then what happened and that is actually how managing the means starts to. You know, then we don't need. We need to manage the means less because we trust that they care about how they get to the desired result.
Jay Johnson:Yeah, we have a rule that we like to implement in companies called the three-to-one rule, which is, if an employee has a challenge, if a team has a challenge, they have to come up with three ideas and out of those three ideas, one recommendation. And when they bring that to their team leader, their supervisor, their director, what we find is we have an impact of creating critical thinkers, and a lot of times, you know, the recommendation is usually pretty accurate, but it's one of those where they feel safe, they feel like they can bring these ideas, or maybe there's a small tweak to it, but it is one of those things of we want people to solve their own problems. So I love what you're saying there.
Shane Jacob:Yeah, the last one just to wrap up. What we do. I mean it's kind of it just fits in and that's just a reward. But the reason that we actually that we list this as our five is that it kind of goes back to number one. You know we need to remember to reward by and it can. It doesn't always have to be by, you know, direct compensation, which everybody appreciates that's, you know, we can't overlook that for sure. But you know a reward can be showing concern for a person, it can be honest and genuine compliments of taking the time to do it, which I mean we all know.
Shane Jacob:And I have specialized for years in only being able to see what's wrong, and I am a master only being able to see what's wrong. And I am a master and I can go into the area and look and I can tell you immediately nine things that are wrong and need to be fixed immediately. Right, and I overlooked 109 things that were done that perfectly that day. And when people hear that this is from personal experience, you beat them to death, man, and then they're just like they don't feel like they can do anything right and they're walking out. And I and I know that from doing it and so taking the really the time to just just to be aware of that, you know, because we have to. It comes back to one and two we have to, we have to love them. That's number two.
Jay Johnson:I. I wish I would have heard that message maybe 15, 20 years ago, because it was a hard lesson for myself as well, and part of it is is I know that I have some perfectionist tendencies. I know that I have different standards and levels of, so I actually have to ask myself my own question sometimes of is it wrong or is it wrong for Jay? And if it's wrong for Jay, that means that's just my incredibly unique standards. But I love what you said.
Jay Johnson:There is really kind of taking a step back and looking at what did they do right or what was the positive outcomes of this, because without that intentionality of doing so, I think that that's something that can really be lost and if we're not rewarding behavior, we're not going to see it again. I did all these things and it wasn't even noticed, it wasn't even acknowledged. Why am I going to bother doing all those things again? So, yeah, I love that reward. So these are the five things that you take as your approach and I love these. This is such a great framework, shane.
Jay Johnson:In our, in our last couple of minutes here together, can you give our audience, you know, things that you've learned? Obviously, this, this framework, is hugely, hugely valuable. But things that you've learned, maybe that in in in in working with horses and working with humans. Obviously, both you know mammals, both have hearts, both have kind considerations, both can also have some negative reactions in different cases. What are some things that you would leave our audience with to really think about in working with people that maybe you've learned from working with horses?
Shane Jacob:I think that really the two biggest things are um, are um. You know the two ideas. Number one is, like you said, responsibility and ownership. One of the ways that horses demonstrate this is kind of interesting. Horses operate in a band or a herd. Usually it's mostly mares and young males and a couple of older stud horses or stallions and a larger group of mares, and so they operate in groups and they have safety in those groups in the wild. Okay, I'm not talking about domestic horses, feral or wild horses and so they're prey animals and so they have safety in this group. Okay, if usually a young horse misbehaves in some way, the leaders, which are usually there's one usually of the older mares and a couple of the mares that are leaders they'll run this young individual, male or female, out of the herd by themselves, off. They'll do that by baring their teeth and running and threatening to kick and just push and push and push until he's isolated away from her.
Shane Jacob:Now, um, it's a good thing that horses don't have, probably, the ability to really think this through, because the things that they may be thinking is they never told me the rules and here I am all by myself. Now remember, moment by moment, my life's at risk from a pack of wolves or cats or bear, whatever, whatever I mean, you know what I'm saying. My safety is over there and I'm out of it. So literally my life is in danger. So just think of all the things. Nobody told me the rules. You know what the hell did they expect? That wasn't fair, or I'm too young, or you know, and you could go on and on and on with the list. But what happens is immediately, okay, it doesn't take very long. That horse has changes his behavior and he comes to the edge of herd and he paces the lines back and forth and he communicates to the other ones, to the, to the leaders of the group hey, I'm back in and I'm, I'm compliant and I'm and I'm, I'm totally available for you and and I'm, I have no issues whatsoever. And he communicates that by putting his head down low to the ground and walk in this line and he'll he'll actually lick his lips and kind of make a chewing motion and he's not eating. These things are subtle communications to the leaders that, hey, look, man, I'm sorry, I want to come back in and I'm going to follow the rules. Okay, and so what happens is when they, when they see this, they immediately they let him back in and it doesn't take very long and they just, and then they totally forget it Like it never even happened.
Shane Jacob:Okay, so when you look at this little process, it's, it's interesting to think of of what can uh, you know, of all the different parallels that you can make with people. I like the personal responsibility and then just letting go and forgiveness, because truly, my last words are is that the most important thing that we can do as leaders the bar none, ok, because truly, the largest influence that we have on results and the behavior of our team and our people the people that are our and that the time that we recognize that and commit to working on ourselves, commit to this relationship with ourselves, because we can only give to the edge of how we feel about ourselves. I believe that this is the most important thing that we can do is take the responsibility and then commit to becoming better ourselves, because it's the only way that we're going to have the reason that our people are going to have the results that we're looking for and to have the most positive impact on other people and make our contribution to the world and all of that.
Jay Johnson:Love it, shane, powerful recommendations and I love that story about how they interact. And it's funny, you know, being a behavioral scientist, a human behavioral scientist, realistically, that's not far from our ancient, ancient ancestors and how tribes formed and how different relationships formed. So you know, in that forgiveness and in that sort of moving on from it, that's something that I think that we as a people continue to struggle with in some cases is letting go of the past and really being able to say OK, let's move forward in a positive way. So such a powerful lesson. I really appreciate you sharing that, shane. How would our audience get a hold of you if they were interested in connecting and learning more?
Shane Jacob:Sure, we're all over media and at the horseman. The horsemanship journey dot com.
Jay Johnson:Love it. So thank you so much for being our guest here on the talent forge Shane.
Shane Jacob:Thank you, Jay. Appreciate the opportunity and appreciate your show. Best of continued success.
Jay Johnson:Thank you so much, and thank you for listening into this episode of the talent forge, where we are shaping the future of talent development.
