The Talent Forge: Shaping the Future of Training and Development with Jay Johnson

From Tech Giants to Leadership Coaching with Emily Sander

• Jay Johnson • Season 1 • Episode 25

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Curious about the pivotal role of a Chief of Staff in shaping talent strategies at fast-growing tech companies? Join us for an enlightening conversation with Executive Coach and former Chief of Staff, Emily Sander, as she reveals her unique journey from the tech giants like Microsoft and Amazon to the high-pressure world of private equity-backed firms. Emily shares the invaluable lessons learned from her transition into leadership roles and collaborating closely with CEOs to drive company-wide initiatives. Gain insights into the nuanced responsibilities of a chief of staff and the importance of fostering collaboration across the organization to ensure effective implementation of talent development strategies.

Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
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Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com

Jay Johnson:

Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge, where we are shaping the future of training and development. I am joined by special guest Emily Sander. Welcome to the show, emily.

Emily Sander:

Thanks for having me, Jay.

Jay Johnson:

Super excited about this conversation and, before we dive into the cool things that you're doing, I'd love for the audience to have a chance to get to know you just a little bit better. So, Emily, tell us your story. How did you get into this talent development executive coaching space and what brought you along this journey?

Emily Sander:

Yeah, so I started my career at large companies like Microsoft and Amazon.

Emily Sander:

I was actually a tester for the original Kindle device, so back when people were like e-reader, what that was me working on that with the team in 07. We launched that and then I worked for a series of small to medium I would say technology-based companies. All of those were private equity backed. So rapid growth, like scale it, grow it. And throughout that series of companies, I got opportunities for leadership roles at an accelerated rate. So I had to learn. Like you know, I was in a board meeting and everyone basically turned to me and was like Emily, you know how to run an international client management team and build it from scratch, don't you? And in my head I was like no no, I do not.

Jay Johnson:

A little baptism by fire.

Emily Sander:

I know. I was like, yes, yes, I do. So I walked back to my office and I literally remember typing into Google like how do you build an international client management team? So kind of learn. You know trial by fire and those things. In parallels to that I also had teams so people management and people reporting to me which I was like I don't know what I'm doing. I bought like 12 books. I went to community college classes. I tried to learn as quickly as I could because I wanted to be a good leader for my team and I wanted to serve them well and represent them well at leadership team meetings and things like this. So that was a steep, steep, steep learning curve through great mentors and a lot of good people along the way.

Emily Sander:

I was successful in those roles and my corporate career culminated in the role as chief of staff for a digital marketing company so a chief of staff is the right-hand partner to the CEO and oversees company-wide initiatives. And then I moved into coaching full-time. So for a series of circumstances I had a decision point to go another rung up the corporate ladder or to put all the chips on the table to my coaching practice. And I did the latter and I get to wake up every day and do the favorite part of my day, which was the mentoring and the guiding and the coaching aspects of all the other roles I had. So that's fantastic Because I was a chief of staff and I had the coaching credentials.

Emily Sander:

I had a whole bunch a chief of staff and I had the coaching credentials. I had a whole bunch of chiefs of staff approach me for coaching. They were asking really good questions. There weren't a lot of good resources out there, so I wrote a book on the chief of staff role. I have a podcast on it. So now I specialize in coaching chiefs of staff and their principals and also companies who want to set that role up well. So in terms of like talent development and talent assessment, that's where I would come into play there.

Jay Johnson:

Okay, that's so cool and congratulations on the book. We'll make sure that we get a link to that book on the chief of staff in the show notes. Let's talk about that for a second. So, because this is such a cool pathway that you've taken right Like being in the corporate world and I've talked to a couple of different coaches that had that opportunity, spent some time in the corporate world, stepped out of that space, and none of them are focused on chief of staff. So I think chief of staff is one of the places that a good trainer or coach or internal talent development team they need to have a good relationship with the chief of staff. You know, oftentimes it seems that the chief of staff is the one that's going to be driving initiatives, might be the person that's telling the talent development team, hey, we need training on X, Y or Z. They seem to have the finger on the pulse. Help us understand that chief of staff role, maybe at a broader scale, and how that relates to talent development professionals.

Emily Sander:

Yeah, so I mean it depends on the company. So if you say chief of staff today, that's an emerging role, so it can mean a lot of things, like a chief of staff at a startup is different than chief of staff at Intel. But there's typically overlap with HR and or talent development, training and development, and that again depends on the stage of company and the needs of the company. But you know, we were I was in charge of rolling out performance reviews for the first time. Like people were doing that on napkins or not doing that at all, and so I worked with, like, hr and training and development hey, we need to roll this out.

Emily Sander:

But we had a whole layer of new managers Um, we, they were operations managers, so that level and we had four first time managers. So they were like, how do I give a performance review? What do I do? And so we worked with our training team to develop that. Um, basically crash course for them. So that's very much where we me, the COO, head of HR and training and development came together and said, okay, here's kind of the what we're trying to get to the end goal, let's talk about some ideas to get there. And training and development was a huge part of that.

Jay Johnson:

Well, I want to jump on something that you said there, and this is audience. Listen. She said together, together, they sat down and did this. It wasn't a directive, it wasn't here, there or anything else. That's the kind of relationships that we need to be building as talent development inside of an organization, to be that collaborative partner rather than the hey go get this done because we've got a perspective, and so does HR, and so does the chief of staff, and together, I think, is one of the operative words to say thank you for saying that, emily, you're welcome. So in coaching now, as you're kind of coaching in this and obviously chief of staff would be considered C-suite, what are some of the things that you experience as a coach, working with probably some of the higher performers inside of an organization?

Emily Sander:

Yeah, I mean I was just talking to someone the other day who's the very first chief of staff at this company. So she's kind of defining this role as she goes and she is reporting. It's kind of a split structure to two principles, which is not unheard of but not typical. And these are like original co-founders, right. So this is their baby. Um, they have strong personalities, they want things done a certain way. They've been the king of the castle for a long, long time and so almost I was coaching her on how to coach them, because the way they add value to their company is changing. They can't do what they were doing before and still be successful, which is part of why they brought in a chief of staff.

Emily Sander:

But I think there's kind of those dynamics. It's often okay, we've brought in this chief of staff, there's an existing, you know, maybe COO or CTO or something else, and they're like who is this person? Do I have a constraint getting to the CEO now, where before I was direct to the CEO? So there's all those kind of personalities where I think HR, recruiting and hiring, talent development can help be clear about what the roles are and who's in charge of what and how the organization is structured and works together, and that can certainly be at the leadership level, but also to senior leaders, to mid-level management, all the way down to rank and file folks. I think it's really important to know, like would I see this person at like the all company meeting or in my breakout meeting over here, like who is that and kind of what are they up to in general, and how do I best interact with that person? I think there's a lot of internal communication and knowledge transfer that can be helpful there.

Jay Johnson:

Okay. So this is fascinating. As a co-founder of a company, as a CEO of a company, I've had to learn to let go of some things, and that was not an easy pathway for me. One of the things that I heard you say that I really really appreciate and like is you're coaching your chief of staff or your client on how to coach the co-founder and the co-founders are the two principles, and I think that's so important. As a trainer, we don't always think that we have to coach or train the person that's hiring us or the person that's bringing us in. We just feel like, okay, well, they're bringing us in, they're hiring us or we work for them and therefore there's no coaching. But how is that process look for you, because that can be daunting sometimes of saying wait a second now was identifying what's important to them.

Emily Sander:

So, like, what's most important to them and in their case it was revenue it was top line revenue. They had a goal to hit for 12 to 18 months and their board was putting pressure on them to hit these targets. Like, the board came in, gave them the investment millions of dollars and they're like show me my return. So that was front and center. So, basically, the chief of chief and staff and I said all right, let's, let's tee this conversation up, framing it around.

Emily Sander:

We're both wanting this, we both want the company to do well. We both want to grow this thing like exponentially. Like I want you to look really good to the board and in order to do that, like part of my job is to make sure that you're spending your time and energy in the most appropriate places and that other people are able to step in and take on other things. You're the CEO. You have the authority to do things that other people don't. You have the name recognition in the industry. You can throw in the big guns to these really important meetings with strategic partners and potential M&A people. So that's where we need you.

Emily Sander:

We don't need you saying this comma should go here in this sentence, or going through all of the JIRA tickets every day, like you used to, which used to be fine, but not at this level. So, lifting that person out of those things and just identifying it in terms of look, we want this. My job is to get you there and look good on the way, and so here's what I think you need to be focused on, and that seemed to work well for this particular combination of individuals.

Jay Johnson:

Well, it's so powerful and a script, literally. So audience, take this, listen to it. Hey, what is it that's most important to you? Whether that's getting good employees in place, whether that is having revenue, or whether that is growing the opportunities for staff. Whatever, that is Okay, that's our North Star. We're both trying to get to that place.

Jay Johnson:

Now here's what I need from you to be able to do that being able to have those conversations, because too often, often I think in a world of talent development, we get directives right. It's somebody says build me a sales training and it's just like okay, well, sales training may not actually get us to where we need, but there's this fear of having a conversation with leadership, or having a conversation with the boss and coaching them to say what is it that you're trying to accomplish? What would a good outcome be? How do we know that sales isn't working right now, before we start chasing our tail and trying to put together something that's ultimately not going to lead to success? So I love how you have sort of framed that as coaching the boss or coaching the bosses and creating the conditions of a collaborative partnership.

Jay Johnson:

Now, emily, I guess my question is is when you're onboarding as an executive coach and working with these C-suites. When you're onboarding somebody, what does that process look like? And I'm really curious because you know, in many cases, at least according to our behavioral assessments, that we've done and we've done a lot of different C-suites. There's some strong personalities that are going to hit those C-suites. There's some, you know, there's some high performers. Obviously they got there somewhere or another and usually it's by kicking ass and taking names right. So you've got strong behavioral patterns that have probably been created over the course of their careers and at that point in time you're bringing them in to essentially shift mindsets, behaviors, whatever it is, to help them be more effective, even where they're at. So what does that onboarding process look like for you?

Emily Sander:

they're at. So what does that onboarding process look like for you? The key word I would throw out there is clarity. So making it clear what their role is, making it clear what other people's roles are and how they're going to interact, and then also making like the onboarding plan clear to the candidate and everyone else. I've seen like disastrous onboarding where they make the hire and then do nothing else and no one even greets the person at the door and I was like face palm, what is happening right here? And then I've had the opposite, where they are greeted with a monogrammed little gift basket and they're like here's your desk and here's everything teed up for you and all that. So much different experience.

Emily Sander:

But I would say overall, the first 90 days obviously are imperative and people need to be aware this person is coming on.

Emily Sander:

There needs to be a plan to get them integrated and up to speed on the company and the internal processes and the product and where the bathroom is and the team and all that stuff, just so they feel most comfortable.

Emily Sander:

And there's always going to be that point where you know it's extra time to train them and they're not quite contributing yet and you want to get them to that tipping point where they do start contributing and they do start pulling their weight as quickly as possible. So you want to make that as painless for the person going through it and the people involved in it as possible. So that's like high level. And if you want more detail in a certain area, let me know. But the first 90 days are critical and a chief of staff, I would onboard C-suite executives and I would have this stuff lined up. So it's like my job is to get you ramped up as fast as humanly possible, knowing that, like a CTO, might take 12 months to ramp up, but those first 90 days have to be structured and kind of I'm going to guide you this way and then it might change from there, but I'm going to get you a running start out the gates to your role.

Jay Johnson:

Well, and it's so important because what we often see and this is this is the fascinating thing about onboarding it's almost like everybody knows they need to do it, but nobody really has the perfect playbook for it right, and it's going to be different in different industries, because I've seen exactly what you're talking. I do a lot of organizational culture consulting and one of the first things that I look at is how are you onboarding your new hires and how are you onboarding your existing hires that have been promoted into new positions? And they're like what do you mean onboarding them into new positions? I'm like you're not onboarding them into new positions because that's a new role considered a new hire. How are you getting them up to speed? What are you providing them? And they're like and it's a huge, huge gap. And it's no wonder that Gartner research shows that 48% of everybody that gets promoted is seen as underperforming after two years.

Emily Sander:

Yeah Well the thing. The thing I found is the big. One of the biggest leaps is when you go from an icy individual contributor to a people manager. One of the biggest leaps is when you go from an icy individual contributor to a people manager Huge Because just because you are good at you know doing your individual contributor job, which is great, does not equal a good people manager.

Emily Sander:

Those are entirely different skill sets. So when this poor, you know top performer gets thrown into people management, it's like, okay, well, you were good at scuba diving, so now you can fly a plane, right, whoa, what? So that's like a whole, whole other thing. Um, the next one is when you have, when you're managing people who have someone underneath them, that's a whole other ball game as well. And then when you hit like C-suite, that's just like, that's just. You have to change your whole game.

Emily Sander:

It's like what got you here won't get you there, type of thing all these different points in the ladder but, um, like the first day, just to get real tactical and practical, like the person's like amped up right, it's like the first day they're trying to prove themselves. They're trying to like take it all in and make a good impression and all this stuff, everything's new. So just know, they take in about like 40 to 60 percent of what they're going through. Um, so, show them the basics, get, get them comfortable with stuff, get them exposed to stuff. I always would give them an industry overview and then a company overview, because that gave them the containers or framework to then place all the information they were going to get in the next coming days, weeks, months. So if I could just get that framework set for them.

Emily Sander:

We're like here's the, you know, like the wooden beams of a house when you're building a house, like here's the framework and then, as you go along, you're going to build the walls and the scaffolding and the cabinets or whatever, but I wanted to get that foundation established early. So they kind of know where to place things and as they get data points coming in, they'll be able to hopefully connect the dots faster.

Jay Johnson:

And I think that's so fascinating because even in hearing you describe sort of that executive coaching. So I've done a lot of management work for new and emerging managers. I'm actually just launched a management accelerator program based on what we were doing at Ford, because it was the same thing and I definitely referenced Marshall Goldsmith's work. What got you here won't get you there. That shift in mindset of being good at something to moving into a role of like hey, you're good at this, I'm gonna move you up and now you're gonna manage six people and get them good at this and they're like but I'm not good at getting people good at getting the job done and sometimes they feel bad because they're like I was a top performer and now I'm underperforming and they don't like that.

Jay Johnson:

So either they micromanage, fail to delegate or anything else. So, as you're making that transition, though and so I've worked with that sort of frontline manager quite a bit as they're making that transition from frontline manager into, say, say, the C-suite, what are some of the mindset shifts that they need to take on? Because now, at this point in time, they're probably enterprise level, or in a larger organization they'd be enterprise level and they may not have as much people management. They may only have two direct reports, which are the managers that are overseeing much larger teams. So what kind of mindset shifts would they need to make in getting into that? So, you know, say, from sales to sales director, to sales VP, to whatever, to chief of staff or whatever that might look like, how do they have to shift their mindsets?

Emily Sander:

That's a broad question. That's a good question. I would answer that a few ways. So, first of all, it's no longer about what I can do that makes me successful. It's what my team can do and what I can enable and empower my team to do so, and your success is derived from your team, and that's a huge shift. It's not about you. It's not about what I can personally do. It's about what your team does, and I remember making the shift myself from like an IC to a people manager, where I liked people are getting credit for things but that's good because they're on my team. Okay, like that's this. This makes it good for everybody.

Emily Sander:

So that was like a huge, like a huge mental shift for me there. Um, and then it's a matter of you will get to a point where you cannot know every technical detail. You cannot know the exact buttons to push to make a campaign go. Yeah.

Jay Johnson:

And so there's like oh, and people like want control.

Emily Sander:

Sometimes they, you know, swan, dive in there and try to micromanage, which is disastrous. But you have to learn to trust people and you have to learn how to train and coach people. So I obviously espouse a huge coach approach to management and say, okay, like, how do you assess talent, how do you put people in the right seats? Bring them on the bus and then get them in the right seats on the bus and all of those things Like the.

Emily Sander:

If you think about an IC to a C-suite trajectory, when you're an IC, like 90% of your time should be spent on technical skills, like that's what you need to be good at, and then, as you go along, that becomes 50-50. And then as you move to like VP, svp, c-suite, you should be spending 90% of your time on leadership skills. It shouldn't be technical skills anymore and so you have to be able to calibrate and know where you are Now in any of these levels, in any of these circumstances. You have to know enough about your department to manage it. So you have to have a working knowledge of everything that's going on. But if you actually know, like every single tiny little, you're missing something else, you're spending your time in the wrong places. So I would just kind of keep that trajectory in mind. I see technical skills are the priority. As you move up and up and up, leadership skills become more and more and more of the priority.

Jay Johnson:

I love that and it's so interesting, right, because we think about how often people do get promoted because of their technical skills and then don't have the management or leadership skills, and I think that that's a huge gap that a lot of our audience is really trying to overcome at this point. So let me ask you this, emily if you were to say, all right, you're in this executive coaching, give me an example, if you can. Or how have you helped people sort of have that breakthrough moment? I know that you know, in working with coaches, I've had my own breakthrough moments where it's just like, aha, the light bulb turns on and I can see the glee in my coach's face going, ah, you finally got there. You know what I'm saying Like, oh gosh, how did I miss this? How do you essentially bring people to some of those light bulb moments, whether that's a mindset shift from, like, getting away from the technical and into the more people leadership, or whether it's even something about their job that maybe they hadn't considered, what does that look like for you?

Emily Sander:

Yeah. So I mean, it's kind of learning how they see the world today. So if, like, for instance, they see the world like how I do good is by what I can personally do, if that's how they see the world today, then okay, it's you got to identify that, meet them where they're at, of course, and then peel that back or offer another perspective and say, hey, what about this one? It's like, oh, that one actually makes more sense and that would make me feel better and that is what my boss wants. So, yeah, maybe it is. How successful can I make my team? Okay, now that I have that in the realm of possibilities, like, okay, let me think about that. And then tactically, how would I go about doing that? So you kind of get into that conversation. But even just having that awareness they didn't have before could be like career changing, like life changing.

Emily Sander:

So just understanding where they're at. If I remember, I had a client who was like Emily, can you help me speak up more at team meetings? I feel nervous. I'm like sure, absolutely. So you know, tell me what goes through your head when you walk into your leadership meeting on Thursdays and she goes.

Emily Sander:

I know that everyone thinks I'm stupid and I'm not a good communicator. And I was like okay, so if you're walking in there with that going through your head, you are definitely going to show up a certain way. So let's unpack that a little bit and say you know, first of all, like, how do you know people you know think you're stupid? Oh well, they just look at me a certain way. Okay, well, maybe someone has resting, you know whatever face, or that's just their face, or they were tired or whatever. So how do you know? And she was like well, I guess I don't, I guess I'm assuming. And I'm like okay, so what can you control? And let's focus on that.

Emily Sander:

I can be clear, I can speak up when I think there's something to be added. And then you know, maybe it's it's. I have value to add to this team. That's the mantra you have going in, like I have, um, I'm on this team for a reason I need to speak up on behalf of my team and be a good ambassador for my team in this leadership group, and so changing some of those mindsets what you believe affects how you feel, which affects the actions you take in the world. So if you've got the wrong story running in your head, then it's going to affect, like I feel nervous, I feel scared, I feel unworthy, and then, of course, you're going to show up in a certain way. So a lot of coaching, as you well know, is between the ears. Sometimes it is like okay, here's some technical knowledge or here's a framework for how to do a one-on-one Like we can talk about. You know the tactical pieces of that, yeah.

Emily Sander:

And that's important too. Not overlooking that at all, because some people are like I don't know what that's supposed to look like, and so how am I supposed to define that? But a lot of times it's, it's the stuff going on in between their ears.

Jay Johnson:

Well, and I'm so glad you said that. So one of my things is I always make a joke. I speak for a living. I am not a mathematician, but I do know one formula and it is T plus F equals B, thoughts plus feelings equals your behaviors, and it's it lines up so perfectly with what you said and I think it's important too to kind of recognize. You mentioned this in the framework of coaching, but I think it applies for training too.

Jay Johnson:

And when we think about, like you know, standing in front of an entire group one of the things that a good trainer is going to know, hopefully they've been able to get some information in advance about what level they're at, what their mentality is, what the morale is. If you're able to be able to have conversations with some of the potential participants and get a better idea of that, you're going to walk into that training way more prepared, way more ready to meet them where they're at. If you don't get that advanced, then even checking in right as you start, hey, how many of you are dealing with X, y and Z? If you see half of the hands go up and you're there to talk about X, y or Z, you better be having something for that other 50% of the group and meeting them where they are at as well. So I love that frame that you put on that, because I think it's really important that when coaching, when training, it's not about what we know, it's about where our participant is at and how do we get them to the next step, whatever that next step might be. Now, I know we're, I know we're. I find this so fascinating and I could probably talk to you about this for hours, Emily, but let's in my last question. I think that I I'd love to hear your comments on.

Jay Johnson:

Executives get stuck, just like all of us do, right, like at some point in time in their career. Maybe they were crushing it to start with, or maybe they're stuck at the start line or whatever it is. But at some point in time an executive is going to get stuck and from a high performance mindset, which generally a lot of them are going to have, that can be debilitating. Or if they find themselves in a barrier, whether it's a chief of staff or anybody else, they find themselves hitting a barrier that they just don't see themselves going over. How do you keep that sort of high performance machine mind running? What do you do to lubricate, you know, the engine that's burning up inside of there as the wheels are spinning. You know, I think it'd be an interesting perspective to hear from that executive level or that coaching, that sort of high, high executive level.

Emily Sander:

So I mean, with a lot of high performers, the fact that they're on their growth edge and they're being challenged by something, and they're even plateauing for a while, can actually be a good sign. It can be that they're pushing themselves or trying something new, or they're pushing the envelope or pushing the market or pushing the industry, and so that can be a good thing, and sometimes it's just reminding them hey, this is part of the process and this feeling of failure is actually a sign of success. So there's, like this framework that I have called the failure loop, but it's a, it's a uh, it's a string of individual loops connected. So it goes up into the right, so a chain of loops, and up into the right is the direction of progress, and so that's the direction we all want to be going. But there's a certain part of an individual loop that goes back down into the left, which is not the direction we want to go. But everyone has to go through that. And that's the phase where it's like, oh crap, something didn't go the way I wanted, or I'm stuck, or I'm really frustrated by this because I can't overcome it and I normally can.

Emily Sander:

And in that part of the failure loop you have a choice. You can sit there and drown in your pools of pessimism and declare yourself a failure and just stop. Or you can say okay, I know where I am in this process. I need to figure out what lesson I need to learn and what I need to do differently, going forward and apply that. And when you do that, you've just sprung yourself up to the next rung of the loop. So if you're consistently moving up and to the right over and over and over again through these series of individual loops, then that is a successful person. That is the definition of learning and that is the definition of growing. And so with many of these high performers, they bump their heads on the ceiling because they're going so fast and they're pushing so hard and they're at that growth edge. It can be a sign of success. Now there's many other circumstances where something else external might be going on or whatnot, but more often than not there's at least an element of that failure loop in there.

Jay Johnson:

I love that. So it's almost like helping them be prepared for the setback, the learning response from it. And then, all right, now, what have you learned? Push forward again, but be ready for the setback, the learning response from it. And then, all right, now, what have you learned? Push forward again, but be ready for the next setback. You're going to hit it. It's going to you know. If you're pushing as hard as you are, you're going to hit it. And then we're going to do this same thing learn and push again. I really like that. So, emily, how would our audience, if they wanted to learn more about chief of staff or leadership training, leadership coaching? How would they get in touch with you?

Emily Sander:

Yeah, the best place to go is my website, which is nextlevelcoach. You can find everything there. I also have a podcast which is called Leveraging Leadership, and I talk about some of these frameworks and I talk to a whole bunch of chiefs of staff and their principals and executives, so those are some good places to find me.

Jay Johnson:

Incredible. We'll make sure those are in the show notes. Thank you so much, emily, for your insights, and it's really nice to be able to get sort of a peek behind the curtain in executive coaching and really kind of drawing that out from that chief of staff or that chief financial officer, chief HR. So thank you so much for taking the time to be here with us today. Pleasure, thank you so much for taking the time to be here with us today.

Emily Sander:

Pleasure. Thank you so much, Jay.

Jay Johnson:

And thank you, audience, for tuning into this episode of the Talent Forge, where we are shaping the future of training and development.

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Jay Johnson, CEO and Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements

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