The Talent Forge: Shaping the Future of Training and Development with Jay Johnson
Welcome to The Talent Forge! Where we are shaping the future of training and development
I am your host, Jay Johnson. Through my 20+ years as a coach, trainer, and leader, I have seen the best and the worst of talent development across the globe. That has inspired and compelled me to create a show that helps other professionals like me navigate the challenging waters of growing people.
The Talent Forge isn't your typical tips and tricks podcast. We delve deeper, explore the future, and pioneer new thinking to help our audience achieve transformation with their programs and people.
In each episode, we talk with industry thought leaders, dissect real-world case studies, and share actionable strategies to help you future-proof your training programs. Whether you're a seasoned L&D professional or just starting out, The Talent Forge is your one-stop shop to shape a thriving learning culture within your organization.
The Talent Forge: Shaping the Future of Training and Development with Jay Johnson
Training Leadership to Become Better Partners with Rebecca Vickers
Rebecca Vickers, our esteemed guest and VP of Operations and Marketing, joins us to explore the transformative power of storytelling in talent development. Her journey is a testament to the importance of fostering a people-centered approach in the ever-evolving business environment.
In this episode, we dive into the nuances of maximizing training impact through strategic partnerships and effective communication. Rebecca sheds light on the art of guiding clients toward optimal decisions while maintaining empathy and transparency.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge, where we are shaping the future of training and development. Today, my special guest is Rebecca Vickers. Welcome to the show, Rebecca.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, rebecca, you've got an interesting background and you know one of the things that when I saw it, when we connected, I was like wow, you've got a VP of operations and marketing at your name and I think this is going to be an incredible conversation. But why don't you tell our audience a little bit about yourself and how you got into this talent development space?
Speaker 2:Thank you for that. You're so kind and I'm so excited to be able to share today. You've got a wonderful audience and I want to make sure that they get as much value as possible. That they get as much value as possible and that's something that's always been important for me is how can I give value and contribute to whatever business, whatever company I'm working for, and that has led me through a variety of different roles in my past and in present, and right now, I currently run and lead a digital marketing agency amongst fabulous leaders and wonderful team members who are leaders in their own right, and I've had the benefit and the privilege of being able to support them in their growth from startup phase to where we're at currently which is still a growth phase for us and navigating those waters of scalability right. So it's operations, it's marketing, it's really coming down to how we train our team and how we educate our clients too, so you get a mixture of both that client customer service and that internal team development as well, and while I oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Let me pause you. I want you to keep going, but let me pause you there. I love what you just said about being able to not only train your team, but to train the customer as well. I'm going to dig into that in just a little bit. So please continue with this. But I think that's so important for not only the teams that you know our audience. Many of them are going to be in an organization. They're going to be training the employees, they're going to be training the leaders, and that's an essential part. Please keep going, Rebecca.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to draw that out real quick oh yeah, absolutely, and I love talking about that too, because I believe client education is equally important. It's all is important, right, um, and that it comes back to that philosophy of Kaizen that a lot of leaders that I talk to also hold, and I myself have even expanded my thoughts and ideas on. But how are we continuously improving? And so, for myself, leadership is about elevating others and how can I be a better leader in the space? And so it takes that training, it takes that development and over time, over the years, I've come to these positions because I've looked at how can I better myself, how can I learn more, grow more. I know I don't know everything. It takes all minds and all people on the team, and we have to be able to tap into not just our potential, but how do we help highlight and grow other people's potential? But how do we help highlight and grow other people's potential? So, right now, what I'm doing even though I do wear many hats it's very much a multifaceted type of approach to building accountability within the team, helping to transform the team. Where can we be iterative in what we're doing and develop what we're currently doing to strengthen our work, and where can we be innovative and find new ways of approaching problems and challenges and growing and learning together. So ultimately, that's kind of in sum what I'm doing from a maybe more philosophical, bigger overview approach. But then also rolling up sleeves and being alongside of team members is really important to me as a leader, because we can grow together, we can learn things together, and leadership is not simply I'm going to stand above you on a pedestal and point and tell you where to go, but, hey, I'm going to be behind you, supporting you and helping, guide you as you need, but I'm also going to leverage your skillset, your strengths and learn from you at the same time too. So that's a large part of what I love doing in my role and what I really appreciate as the development side of that.
Speaker 2:My journey has been a very rich background of studying and starting out in classics and theater and really loving story and storytelling, and that's probably where some of that humanistic, people-centered approach comes from too, because at the heart of great leadership and training is recognizing that you're training people and we're not training robots, and we might call them or refer to them as employees or team members or colleagues, what you will.
Speaker 2:They're also people and so we have to remember that and from my experience there and working in arts, marketing and other industries like real estate and getting to know how other businesses operate, all the way through I've been studying, learning and growing.
Speaker 2:I've been studying, learning and growing and I've had wonderful opportunities with wonderful leaders and mentors who have guided me in their expertise and given passed on a lot of knowledge and great examples of what it means to train, what it means to be a great marketer, how to build systems that can support the work that you're doing, support your team and build a culture around growth your team and build a culture around growth.
Speaker 2:Because, jay, I really believe and I hope maybe this resonates with your audience but if we start with our leaders, we start as ourselves and starts with us. If we build that culture of growth and of curiosity and collaboration and leaning into the discomfort of change, which is constant, as we're told right Always, if we lean into that and recognize that we're going to change, life around us is going to change, but we can change for the better when we're proactive with how we approach change happening around us in the world externally, with how we want to change ourselves and improve, and so I take that as a constant through line, through my background and experience. And now to present, helping other team members. We've got some really fabulous managers and leaders on our team who have been going through that transition from doer to leader influencer.
Speaker 1:And we're going to dig into that for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That transition, that mindset shift that's required, is something that is absolutely paramount for any organization.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I wholeheartedly agree.
Speaker 1:Now, one of the things that you said is this theater background which, by the way, you are looking at the Conrad Birdie of his high school musical way way back in the day. I share a theater background with you on that, a little bit more than that. But theater, you know, when you bring theater into some of this and there's a lot to unpack in what you said there but when you bring theater or storytelling into some of this training or into some of this sort of transformational approach that you're having with your leaders, your team and your leaders, your team and your organization, what impact do you see that having on the people's engagement or having on how they essentially, how they show up to some of these opportunities that you're providing?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I love it because it builds connection. When you share a story, you're able to better connect with a person because you are creating something emotional in them, and I think, when it comes to training into leadership, a good story can and might start with you expressing or describing a time where you failed, you were embarrassed, you made a mistake. You can choose how vulnerable you want to be in that moment, but when you show how human you are and how you learn from an experience and grown via the power, the mode of storytelling, then people are going to connect with that story. They're going to understand better the context, why what you're sharing is important, and they're going to remember it a whole lot better than if I simply give you a list of instructions or an Ikea style booklet.
Speaker 1:Go do this, go do that.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's going to have more meaning, value and then expressing the impact as well. So connection, it's memorable. It's also entertaining. One of our values at FMO Media is to entertain, to educate, empower, entertain and execute. In all of those wonderful words is an active, emotional and very powerful thought and approach to how we can really help our team members live fully and work fully together in a way that gives people agency. They need to do their job well. And the same thing, I'll add, because I know this is important too, we want to chat about it clients, how are you educating, how are you empowering your clients?
Speaker 2:We don't want work to be boring, right? I hope we don't want work to be boring, I shouldn't assume, but we want to have some kind of engaging, positive experience. I won't necessarily say fun, because it might not always be fun. Experience is very much a word that I draw on from my arts background, my arts marketing background, that we're crafting an experience, and this goes for your clients and the experience you're giving with your clients and sharing with them. This goes with your team and how you're experiencing the relationship, the dynamic, the work dynamic, and how they're experiencing you, too, work dynamic, and how they're experiencing you too. And so how are we building that culture back to culture again where we can have really meaningful, engaging, positive experiences, with the caveat that we know life is not always roses and sunny days. We were going to navigate those challenges, but if we come with that mindset of agility and looking for solutions versus problems which a lot of learning can be how am I moving towards a solution? Then I think you're going to find a healthier culture and company atmosphere overall.
Speaker 1:Well, and to piggyback on the storytelling aspect, you know, one of the things that we know and understand is like the cycle of the hero's journey and the transition from, you know, the 17 point transition, from being inspired or being engaged and then finding ourselves not having the confidence and then taking the action and then never going back, and then all of a sudden we find ourselves emerged out of this new world and I'm really kind of short scripting it based on time here but emerging from this new world completely changed. And I do think about that hero's journey a lot when we think about training, because there's plenty of times when content or ideas or even a shift in culture kind of gets those, you know, gets the audience or gets the leaders thinking to themselves like I can't do this, I don't have the skills, I don't have the knowledge, and it's usually a guide or a mentor that's able to help them along that journey. That ends up getting them to the space of okay, there's no going back from here Because, as you mentioned, change is hard. It's ever present, but it's hard. Our brain is not wired for it. So you know, we know from neuroscience and psychology, our brain is not wired for change, it wants status quo, it wants to stay in a safe, non-risky type venture, and learning and training and change can be incredibly scary. So we're going to get to the. We're going to get to the clients and educating the clients, because I think that that can be really important when we start to think of maybe we're in an organization and our leaders are actually our clients. They're the ones that are asking us for particular things in the training, talent development space and we do need to educate them as much as we need to educate the participants. But I want to stick here for just one moment, because I think this storytelling is a really powerful concept in terms of training and talent development.
Speaker 1:As you're navigating and maybe sharing the story of your vulnerability, right, and you're talking about how maybe you struggled or how you came to this point and, as you mentioned, you have that choice of how vulnerable do you want to be, at what place? Cause I think this is where sometimes it can be really difficult for a trainer, a coach or an HR person. Where do you draw the line on vulnerability Right, and and and and? Hear me out on this real quick.
Speaker 1:When we think about it, it's like, okay, well, maybe I'm sharing something that, for me, is incredibly vulnerable and I tell you that I had a yogurt bowl for breakfast and I'm like, oh my gosh, I just let you into my world and that that was vulnerable. And most people look at that and be like that's nothing. And then you have other people that tell maybe a deep, uh traumatic, story from their childhood and really go into detail about some of the challenges or barriers maybe that they faced. And you know, vulnerability seems to have this sort of subjective quality of what's vulnerable to me may not be to you. How, as a storyteller, can we really match, maybe, the energy of the audience or how can we really maximize the value of demonstrating that vulnerability but not taking it to the cliff and going over by 15 feet?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it doesn't get into TMI and we have our team questioning our abilities as a leader.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right, there is a subjective element to it. I think it also goes back to what you were saying earlier, that transformative quality of storytelling and how we're showing the journey from point A to point B. And it's not a straight line, it's not a straight exponential line. There are going to be some twists and turns to it. There's going to be that inciting incident, there's going to be that climactic moment and the denouement that leads us to a resolution. And so if you think about what's the purpose of sharing this story, what's the impact, what's the transformation that I hope my team receives from this story, and you understand the goal and why you're sharing it, then you're thinking about the receiver, the recipient of your story, and it's not about you, and I think that's important.
Speaker 2:We have to remember our audience. Same thing goes for marketing, right, we have to remember that our content is not meant for us, it's meant for our audience. And, at the same time, we need to be mindful of our brand image. If you're thinking about marketing, we need to be mindful of our brand image. If you're thinking about marketing, we need to be mindful of the perception that our team is also going to get from us too. So it is a tricky road to travel, and there is a fine line between I'm sharing too much and I'm sharing just enough so that you understand the challenge that I overcame and how I did it and how I approached it in a way that shows you that I'm human.
Speaker 2:But it's not crossing that line of highlighting perhaps all of the flaws and the trials and all the thoughts that people might not need to be privy to. They really need to understand that transformative nature, and I think a good rule of thumb would be if you don't feel like you are comfortable sharing something publicly, you probably shouldn't share it. It's kind of my same rule of thumb for putting something online. If you have any kind of doubt about whether it's appropriate to share this online or not, you probably should not post it online. And I think the same thing goes for what kind of story you're sharing with your team. The other thing, too, I would keep in mind, no matter what department you're in, but would your HR department? Would your boss?
Speaker 2:would your colleagues feel embarrassed for you in a way that's cringeworthy. So that's where, you know, the subjectivity comes into play. It takes a little bit of practice. I would maybe run your story by a trusted colleague or a friend, or maybe spouse partner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that would Second opinion definitely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's an opinion, definitely yeah. You get some feedback. So all of that to say there's some nuance to it. General rule of thumb if that's not something that you feel confident in sharing, that is going to potentially cause some maybe uncomfortable tension within your team, then you probably shouldn't share it. So think of the team, think of the impact you want that story to share. Is it relevant to the training too? I've been in situations where people are sharing stories and the story doesn't match Like.
Speaker 1:what the hell does this have to do with anything? That we're talking about. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You really just wanted to tell me about your dog, and that's great. I love dogs, as you can see, but the story is probably not relevant to learning about whatever. X, y or Z is that day, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and I like what you said, it's a reoccurring theme that we talk about here is keeping the audience in mind. As a trainer, as a coach, as a HR person, we often think about, okay, how do I sound, how do I look, what does my slides look like? And it's really less about that than it's. How is the audience perceiving me? What is the audience feeling when I'm saying this? What is the audience reading, or where's their attention drawn when I'm creating whatever you know visual representations of my words? So it's keeping that audience in mind is certainly a reoccurring theme and I think it's a great tip that you shared. There is kind of you know, the second opinion, but also just making sure that we maintain focus. Now, this is where I'm going to transition us and I really want to dig into this because I think it's so important. Right, you had mentioned not only training your team, but also training your clients.
Speaker 1:Now, whether you're in the talent development space as an external consultant, an external trainer, an external coach, or if you're embedded inside of an organizational talent development wing, you have clients and the clients for you can look like your organizational leadership and you know one of the things that we talk about here, and I'll lean back into Jess Almley's conversation that we had here on the Talent Forge of moving from order taker to becoming a strategic partner so important. But part of that becoming a strategic partner is also educating that leadership. So it's not just about training the people in the room, it's also about training the people that are requesting your services or requesting your expertise. Let's get an understanding. When you mentioned this, obviously it resonated. It hit with me. Talk to me about this. What does it mean to train your client as much as it means to train your leadership?
Speaker 2:So, jay, I'm glad you mentioned your other episode. I didn't actually get to hear it, but I love that somebody else is talking about this and encouraging this too. About this and encouraging this to the idea of not being an order taker, because it is something that we constantly talk about at FMO that I hold as really important to keep in mind. When you're working with a client, you are their partner and you want to be strategic, and we don't want to simply take a request and fulfill it without helping guide the client towards the best possible decision for them.
Speaker 1:So when I ask you for a giant yellow flyer with 16 different colors and 900 words in 2.5, you're not just going to hand that over to me. Come on, I'm the client though.
Speaker 2:I know Well, our job as project managers and as those team members is to satisfy requirements and needs right, and we want the clients to be happy. And that's where the conflict comes in. Jay, I would love to get you that poster. How about we look at this other option here, too, because I wonder if maybe this will help your brand image develop the consistency, the cohesion and the familiarity that we're looking for. How about this other option? Here's why maybe this one here while it's a fun idea, it might not be the most effective for you. I know we're being concise here for the sake of time for you, that's, you know. I know we're being concise here for sake of time, but that's how I would try to steer that conversation towards what's the best option for the client that is still going to satisfy requirements and needs, that is still going to satisfy them and make them feel really good about working together. That isn't simply a okay, got it. Good, you'll have that on your desk by Monday.
Speaker 1:There's three things that you did there, rebecca, that I think are brilliant, and I want to draw attention to them for our audience. The first thing is you validated me. You didn't tell me no. You said, wow, cool, that's a, that's a neat idea. And you did it. And I didn't feel like you were being condescending. It was authentic, like oh, wow, yeah, I'd love to do that for you.
Speaker 1:Then, second, you offered me an alternative to consider. You didn't say, but let's look at this. You didn't give a. But you didn't give a. We're not doing that. You literally said I'd like to bring this into the space for you to evaluate alongside of this option. And then the third thing that you did was you reminded me that you, that you're on my team and you know I want to make sure that your brand and that we have this and that we're on the same team and that we're you know that this is going to bring you value. You did that so succinctly, in less than like two sentences. I didn't want to lose that, because that is gold and that's exactly what we've been pushing for, like don't just be the order taker, don't just accept, let's validate, let's offer an alternative and let's have a conversation about it, so I didn't want to cut you off. But, wow, just absolutely brilliant there, rebecca, I loved that.
Speaker 2:Well, you flatter me. I'm glad you did, though, jay, because I love to give examples and scenarios, and you summarize that beautifully, those three points, and understand where I'm coming from too. I love how you said it. I didn't say no, and that's something that I love to train the team on is how do we say yes to a client even though we're trying to steer them in a better direction, and not have to say no, because no can be a very, it can be a very stalling, or it is a negative word, but it can come across in a way that feels very much like a roadblock to a client, and they're going to put up their guard. They're going to feel potentially a little defensive if we tell them no outright, and this is where the mindset shift between I'm a problem stacker, as I call it. Somebody just stacks problems no, can't do that, not sure, I'm stuck. And a problem solver or solution years, as I also like to call it. Somebody just stacks problems no, can't do that, not sure, I'm stuck.
Speaker 2:And a problem solver, or solutioneers, as I also like to call it. How are you a solution? Here? We're always looking for the best possible approach for the best possible outcome, and when you truly care about the outcome for your clients and you want to do right by them and you want them to succeed. Same thing with our team members, right? We realize that they're people and we all have that desire for success and achievement and growth. How can we set them up in the best way possible? And it wouldn't be right, it would not be serving them if we simply say yes to every single request, because their request, while well-intentioned and maybe a fun idea your poster could be a great idea, jay, and maybe we find some way to compromise.
Speaker 2:But maybe we find some way to compromise and make that poster fun, but do it in a way that's going to be effective and attract the right kind of attention, right, and so in that compromise we're collaborating and we're working together. But if I were to simply say, yeah, sure, Jay, I can get that to you, I'm not doing you a service. I'm actually taking valuable time that you are paying for and I'm distributing it towards something that is probably not going to be in your best interest.
Speaker 1:Not going to yield the outcome that we want.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and you don't know necessarily. You're not necessarily aware that that's the case. So I, who should know better I say should, but that's a nebulous word. I say should, but that's a nebulous word I, who might know better, will be able to serve you better if I'm able to educate you as to why that might not produce the best outcome. And here are some other alternatives that we can do for you.
Speaker 2:So we don't have to say no and hit that roadblock, but we can say let's look at this as strategic partners to your phrase and point, so that we can head in the right direction together.
Speaker 2:And so that's how I like to approach it, and I love that we're in sync and so many other people are aligned with that too, because at the end of the day, hopefully, we all want that growth for our clients, and it takes time to build up that rapport. I truly feel like if you start with that mindset of educating not condescending, which you picked up on, but educating and assuming that your client is the smartest person in the room, if you assume that the other person is the smartest person in the room and they know way more than you they certainly know more about their business than you, then you can approach that suggestion with a humility, with a deference to the knowledge that they have, but with an understanding that, hey, I want to help you, and so let me share some info that might help you, as the client, make a decision with me, your partner.
Speaker 1:See, and I really like that because and I want to go one level deeper, at least one level deeper on this and part of it is is, you know, from a trainer's perspective, or maybe if you're just starting out as your freelance training and you get a call from a client that says we need blank training, and immediately you're like I don't. Client that says we need blank training, and immediately you're like I don't think that's going to fix the problem Sometimes, is that entry-level freelance or entry-level coach? It is very, very scary and it can be exceptionally difficult to feel like what is pushing back right, like okay, let's, let's hold there, let's think about that. That sounds like a great idea, but maybe this is something else that could also work too, right? So it's a little scary from that outside consultant that maybe has clients, but from a leadership or from an internal practitioner, whether they're in HR, whether they're on the talent development team, in many cases that exchange is occurring with your single source of income. It is your leader, your boss, this is your career, this is your long-term. It's not necessarily just a freelance. But now I'm saying, okay, this leader.
Speaker 1:And from our behavioral elements assessment we know that a lot of executive leadership tend to have very strong opinions, very strong drives and generally makes decisions much quicker than, say, somebody in the marketing or the talent development space, which is much more about learning and bonding, collaborating, et cetera. So you get this directive and now, at this point in time, maybe there wasn't that space to have a conversation right then, and there Maybe there's. You know, maybe when you did get that directive, the leader was upset about something, saying hey, fix this, get this done, and maybe that moment wasn't the right moment. How can we go back to that? How can we create space when maybe the space wasn't created for us or there wasn't the opportunity, we weren't invited to give our opinion, but it was more of that sort of directive and now recognizing it can be really scary. What are your thoughts on that, rebecca?
Speaker 2:This is a great scenario and I'm going to share some ways that you could approach it. It also brings to mind which we might want to touch on too, how you as the trainer, the coach, the guide, can also learn in the process, because so many thoughts come to mind when you talk about how the person making the request whether it is an external or internal client they might not know the actual problem that they have and they might not understand the root problem, but be looking at the symptom of something. And so they are quick and I absolutely agree. A lot of us in those roles were very quick to make a decision and think we got all the answers. We have to remember that we don't know what we don't know.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And it's oftentimes the people who are, we'll call it, boots on the ground, the folks who are in it, executing, doing the work. They might have additional information. At the very least, they're going to have a different perspective on what the challenges are. And you, as that coach, guide, trainer, whatever your responsibility is in the development space, this can be a great moment for us to ask questions and get to the heart of what the person might actually be looking for. This is something that I apply to individuals, you can apply to groups, you can apply to your external clients, you can apply to your executive team, your colleagues, of course, doing so in a way that's respectful and appropriate, right, but asking the how questions and the what questions before you necessarily ask the why questions so that we're not putting people immediately on the defensive. Well, why do you need that kind of training?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Tell me a little bit more. What's going on with the team that brings this training to top priority for you? How can I best support your team in this training, or what are you observing or noticing that I can find a way to navigate through my training and address for the team that needs that support, if you start?
Speaker 1:great framed questions. I really like those.
Speaker 2:Well, I love it's hard, right, it's hard for us to think of them in the moment, but I love having questions that I know can help get to the root cause, prepped and ready, when I run into those roadblocks of, hey, we need this or do this or I want you to. Hey, we need this or do this or I want you to. And I think you know going back to culture again, I'm probably going to sound like a broken record, but if you develop a culture of curiosity, your whole team is going to be curious with you and they're going to look for that deeper insight and info gathering so that everybody can make the best decision. Because, jay, I feel like people make bad decisions for usually two reasons One is they don't have the info that they need to make a good decision and two, they're not motivated to make a good decision. And we could talk about how you motivate people.
Speaker 2:That's probably a whole other topic in and of itself, but the info part is so crucial because if we give people the benefit of the doubt we all want to make good decisions, right Then how do we make sure we're giving them the best info to make the best decision, whether I'm a leader requesting a training and even though I'm a leader developing, I have other leaders that I work with who I request trainings from, and I have to make sure that I'm asking the right questions and they are open and feel comfortable asking me questions to get to the heart of what is really important, what's really going to be impactful and a good use of our time. Because the other thing too, jay, especially in the agency world, but any business, we're so busy, right? We're recording this now during Thanksgiving holiday week.
Speaker 1:It's a short for everybody. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone Happy.
Speaker 2:Thanksgiving yeah, I cleared the calendar of any meeting that was not going to produce an efficient and effective result for us within this week, because I need to be so mindful of everybody's time. And so, if we also think of training as the time that it takes to invest in someone, and not treating that lightly, but really thinking, how are we maximizing and optimizing this training so that people can take what we're teaching them and then go off and apply it? Because when you don't apply or you can't apply and this is, for the audience, rhetorical because you can't answer, but I would love to maybe see comments from this what have you experienced, or when have you experienced a time where you've been asked to learn something, or you went off to learn something and you immediately forgot it because you didn't use it and apply it, and it wasn't relevant.
Speaker 1:And Rebecca, I can tell you that the data on this and the science on this, the forgetting curve tells us that if we don't use it within, if we don't use it or access it within two days, 70% of the learning is gone. Within two weeks, it's 90% of the learning is gone. And, from the other perspective, generally less than 23% of people that are participating in a training will actually take a behavioral action related to that training, which is. Those are abysmal stats, but those are the ones that are pretty, pretty widespread throughout the industry.
Speaker 2:Those are amazing and also, I believe it, too Amazing in the sense that it really does make you consider how am I structuring this training? Is it accessible for everybody? In this training, too, I love to include any kind of workshopping or activity, definitely have a takeaway or action items following a training and I know we're diving into a little bit more of that side of things and further away from your original question, but I do encourage everybody. How are we taking our time and using it wisely and investing it towards the actual problem with a more practical, relevant solution? Because, to your point, not everybody is going to absorb it and I would be curious what's the difference between a training that is extremely relevant and timely and impactful versus a training that isn't relevant and people don't connect with and doesn't address the root challenge or problem or the type of growth? Because we can look at it from the positive side too where do we need to enhance and support the team? If it doesn't address those things, then are those stats even lower and more shocking to us?
Speaker 1:It wouldn't surprise me at all. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said the difference between the symptoms and the root cause, right, like a lot of times, if we're sitting in the leadership seat, we're suffering the symptoms but not necessarily throw this training at it. It's almost like you go to the doctor's office and they don't know your exact diagnosis. So they're like here, take amoxicillin for several days, give me a call and let me know if that worked or not, and it's just like okay. Five days later it's just like that didn't work. Okay, come back in, we're going to give you a steroid. Now. That didn't work, okay, let's try something else. And it's just trial and error which, quite frankly, is expensive and true in medical, true in marketing, I'm sure, true in training and everywhere else. It's expensive, it takes a lot of time and there's a lot of sunk costs that occur along that way. So that question of managing the symptom or getting to that root cause, there's two additional questions. I love the questions that you said. Two additional ones I like to use myself. One is what behaviors are you seeing that tell you that this is a problem? And I really try to get them to focus on the observable behaviors, because that oftentimes gives me some insight. And then the second one is I totally steal, uh, brene Brown, and I know it comes from scrum language, but what does done look like? What are the outcomes that you want from this, and do we think that this type of a training is going to get us to those outcomes? So I wanted to kind of add onto that I I really really appreciate that symptom versus root cause, and sometimes we think the symptom is the root cause, even though it's probably not so, rebecca, I want to ask one more question in this space because I think this is probably, if I was to rate the biggest challenges in talent development today, it is.
Speaker 1:It's a disconnect between the trainers, the coaches, the HR practitioners and leadership, and leadership I'm using is sort of synonymous with client, whoever it is, that's the decision maker that's making the calls on budget, that's making the calls on hiring and firing, that's making the calls on whether your contract's getting extended or whether your division's going to be completely cut.
Speaker 1:So I'm using those sort of interchangeably in this space because I think it affects both freelancers as well as in embedded trainers and talent development specialists. So that is, I think, the biggest challenge what do we do when we get that leader and I think that this is a question that's often difficult, and I'm sure that you've seen this before in the marketing space when you get that leader, you give that encouragement, you push back gently, you guide and at the end of the day, they just are not having it. And and this was something that was brought up in a couple of other conversations like this Like we know that there's those clients out there that are like no, this is how I want it. I want you to do it this way. You know it's not going to be effective. You know that Jay's flyer sucks, uh, you know that this is not going to produce the outcomes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:How, how, what are some thoughts on handling that type of a situation, when that person is so locked into their own biases, beliefs, whatever it is, that they're just not willing to give space for dialogue, collaboration, strategic partnership, thinking? What do you think on that?
Speaker 2:That's another great question and scenario. I have run into that multiple times in different ways and well, there are two things that I'll touch on. I'll address the scenario first, and it goes back to that education right, and if they're not open to collaborating and seeing different points of view and different options, then approaching it with the understanding that I hear you, I understand what you're asking for. You might need to ask some additional questions for extra clarity in case the request is vague, but once you have that understanding of what they're asking for, I would then again share what the outcome is that you expect to see from that and be okay with them making that decision and sharing something to the effect of hey, jay, I understand what you're asking for, I understand this is important to you and that you are very passionate about this yellow poster project. So I want to make sure that we fulfill your needs and requirements as best as possible and in a way that makes you satisfied and happy. I do have those other ideas that I'm more than happy to re-evaluate with you if you so choose. I do want to clarify that if we go down this path, these are the expected outcomes. I could be very wrong at the same time, because sometimes you never know what could happen or what might change.
Speaker 2:From what I've seen before with other clients, from other experiences, this is the pattern of result that I typically see with a project like this.
Speaker 2:As long as you are an agreement and this is, you're okay with it, this outcome being the potential outcome then I'm more than happy to do everything in my power to make this a successful poster for you.
Speaker 2:And if we need to pivot and change our approach, then I'm going to communicate as much as possible throughout the progress and you can come to me with as much feedback as you need, and we can change if we and if you so choose.
Speaker 2:I just want to be really clear on my experience and the pattern that I see potentially happening as a result. And so if you break it down for them, you acknowledge the importance of the request, you have an acknowledgement of what they're asking for and that you hear and understand them and give them that expectation, you have a little bit of a buffer for yourself. You have that paper I would have that paper trail for yourself, too of outlining what they might expect and what's in your power and capacity if you go down that route and there are varying degrees to which you can do that. A poster might be something less. You might take a simpler approach to that, a training, where you're training, you know, 20 people or more, or you're coaching or mentoring a team member to get them to a certain point. You might have to have lengthier discussions, but it would go back to that education and helping to guide the person towards what they might expect from the decision that they're making.
Speaker 1:Rebecca, that actually might be one of my favorite answers to that question and again I'm going to give you kind of the three things that I pulled out of there. The first thing that you did was you started with an excessive not excessive in a bad way an excessively great amount of empathy and you validated again you saw them again to keep that sort of defense mechanism from rearing up. The second thing is I think you did a really nice job of demonstrating. This is what I'm understanding. This is what you want. This is important. These are the potential consequences.
Speaker 1:So you again went back to your concept of here's all of the information. This is the patterns that I've seen from these types of things. We know that this is the outcomes and I'm not certain that these are going to line up. But if this is, you now have all the information. I've given it to you. Now it's time for you to make that final decision and I'm going to do everything I can to execute. And if they still are not moving at that point in time, sure, we've got to execute, we've got to follow and do what it is, but at this point you've empathized. You gave them all of the information and you gave them that last opportunity to really say is this what I want? Was I making that decision on impulse? Was I making that decision hastily? I really love the way that you communicated that.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you. It takes a lot of practice and experience to get to that point too. So I know it might not come easily for everybody, but I do encourage everyone to practice having those difficult conversations, because they become easier when you have that empathetic and I like to think of it as empathy and expectations You're outlining expectations and then you're approaching it empathetically with them and then the active part is where you can have compassion for who they are and what they do and what they need from you, and you can be compassionate in how you follow up on that with them. The other thing that I wanted to highlight from what you had said in setting up the scenario to Jay is the understanding of transparency, and I'm going to borrow from Simon Sinek, who says that transparency is about giving context.
Speaker 2:It's not about kind of back to what we were saying earlier about storytelling. We don't have to let our whole slip show. We give context so that people understand the decisions that we are making or that we are hoping that we will make together. And so if you're transparent and then proactive I love proactive communication I think that can be the most strategic because you're getting ahead of a potential problem or question or the education that might be needed, and you have the other person, the recipient, in mind. So it's not about you, but it's about how do I make sure that that other person feels safe, feels informed, feels comfortable in our conversation and their needs are prioritized because I am here to serve them. Whether we're serving our team, whether we're serving clients, I take that servant leadership approach of how can I remove a roadblock for you and not be the roadblock or the bottleneck for you.
Speaker 1:And I've heard you say serving a couple of times. I was going to ask you about serving leadership because I kind of figured that that was sort of your frame. Just hearing like this is how I can serve you, bastard. This is the cert. You know, I am here serving your interests and so you use the vernacular in there. I love that.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I truly believe there are different types and models of leadership that we can use and take on as needed. It's certainly the situational leadership also comes to mind here the default that I find beneficial very much for me. I can only speak to personal experience, but the default for me is servant leadership, because if I am serving the other person, then it's about what is best for them and their needs, and I can then adapt myself my leadership style, the mode of training or communication, to make sure that whatever I'm imparting to them and sharing with them is given in a way that gives value and lifts them up versus tears them down or makes them feel inferior or or or. How can I make sure that I'm supporting that person in the actions that I take, in the communication, communication that I share, in the way that I give and receive information to and from them?
Speaker 1:Rebecca, I think this has been an incredible conversation and I really love bringing in this operations and the marketing experience to this sort of the transformation of being out of the order taker business and into that strategic partner, and I really love the tactics and tips that you were able to share with the audience today. If our audience wanted to get in touch with you, how might they be able to reach out to you?
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. I love connecting with people. On LinkedIn you can find me, Rebecca Curison Vickers. I'm more than happy to connect with others and share, give whatever value that I can for anyone who might be in the space and want some additional practical tips. I also have a newer podcast out. It's called Bad Bosses Great Leaders. We're there to highlight and feature great leaders in the space and how they're equipping their team and growing new leaders beside them, and so you can check that out on greatleaderspodcastcom, and I love to be able to spread the word so that we can really truly develop people who are reaching their fullest potential and creating better, healthier work environments.
Speaker 1:Love it. We'll make sure that those are in the show notes, so go and give a listen. Obviously, leadership is one of the most important things that we can be developing in ourselves and in our teams, so I want to say thank you, rebecca, for being here with us today, for sharing your wisdom and experience. This has been an incredible conversation and I'm just I'm so grateful that you took the time, even in this busy week of a holiday, to be here with us on the Talent Forge.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, jay. It's a week of gratitude, so I'm incredibly grateful to be able to share my experience and hope that it will be practical and valuable for others. Thank you so much for having me. It's my pleasure.
Speaker 1:I will extend that gratitude to you, the audience. Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Talent Forge, where together we are shaping the future of training and development.
