The Talent Forge: Shaping the Future of Training and Development with Jay Johnson

Part 2: The Power of Assessments & Combating Burnout with Dr. Barb Thompson

• Jay Johnson • Season 1 • Episode 30

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Join us as we welcome back Dr. Barb Thompson, a seasoned expert in the world of assessments. In this episode, we explore the importance of having a trained professional guide the interpretation of these assessments to harness their full potential and adapt to life's ever-changing landscape.

Additionally, our conversation shifts toward the pressing issue of burnout, particularly within high-performance teams, and how we challenge traditional notions of resilience and toughness, offering a fresh perspective on how intrinsic motivation can act as a safeguard against burnout. 

Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com

Jay Johnson:

Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge, where we are shaping the future of training and development. I am rejoined by special guest Barb Thompson, who had featured on a show the last time. Now, if you recall, Barb is somebody who is working with some of the best and highest performing teams in the world. Welcome to the show, Barb. Thanks for coming back.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

Thanks for having me. I'm excited about our conversation today.

Jay Johnson:

So I wanted to have you back, because in the world of training and talent development and even organizational consulting, we see a lot of assessments out there Everything from personality assessments, behavioral assessments, unique ones, ones that we're all familiar with, whether that's DISC or Myers-Briggs and you are an assessment expert and obviously do a lot of work with assessing teams and being able to better understand them. I'd love to just give you free reign here. Talk a little bit about your assessment experience, share with us a little some of your insights or some of your direction, and we'll take the conversation from there, because I know that everything comes out of this one is going to be really useful to any of us that are using assessments on a daily.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

Sure. So I think I'll just say that my experience with assessments started in a clinical realm, and so initially I was trying to learn about different assessments in order to diagnose people who felt like they had something going on mentally or emotionally that was out of the norm for them. And then, once I was introduced to more and more assessments in the army, then I was able to look at assessments a little bit differently. The first, I would say, kind of residency experience I had was that of looking at brain injury, which I think makes sense if you consider especially, you know, being in the army and the problems that we faced within the last 20 years in those environments that we sent our soldiers to. So that required another robust set of assessments, learning about them anyway. And so then cognitive functioning right, I got that, the tools that I needed to assess cognitive functioning. So now you've got kind of like emotional assessments, mental health assessments, cognitive functioning assessments, you know kind of tasks of daily living.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

And then, whenever I went into the world of operational psychology, then assessments again kind of opened up a new arena for me in the in the realm of assessment selection for high performing, high risk teams and then beyond that personal and professional development. So in a nutshell, that's kind of my background with assessments. I've used them for a lot of different purposes and I think that they are excellent tools.

Jay Johnson:

So I sensed just a little bit of they're excellent tools. What was the but that was following along beside that? I kind of got this inclination that that may be coming next.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

So I just like, when real people are paired along with the assessment, that are trained on the assessment and how to really utilize the assessments, because you know, as someone who's done the work in creating a research-backed assessment, that there goes a lot, goes into it, and sometimes, when assessments are, you know, kind of emailed out and take this, take that. You know they can be harmless, it can be just for fun, but you really want to be careful about the way that, um, you introduce a person to an assessment, because if I am learning, or I feel like I'm learning, something that is true about myself or I believe to be true about myself, that can have certain consequences on the way that I think, behave, or think, believe and then behave. And so for me, the hesitation is just that I think assessments are best when paired with someone who's really familiar with them.

Jay Johnson:

And I love that you bring that up.

Jay Johnson:

One of my bigger challenges with assessments for many years and I was certified in the NEO-PIR, which is one of the clinical diagnostics for the big five factors in personality, as well as a number of others here, there and wherever else and one of the things that I thought was really interesting because a lot of people they love to learn about themselves or they love to become self-aware, but then they sort of hold on to the things that they end up getting from these assessments. So it's just like somebody goes and takes the DISC assessment You're like oh well, I'm a high D and then immediately sort of like starts to live that identity or just justify that identity, even though behaviorally maybe they could make different choices. But it's just like well, that's how I am, I scored a high D, so now I'm just going to be direct in every single thing that I say and I think that that can be extraordinarily limiting. So when you're talking about being paired with somebody to sort of navigate that, what does that experience look like, barb?

Dr. Barb Thompson:

Yeah, I don't think it's too complex. I think that you have someone on the end right that can say okay, you took the you know 10, 20, 30 minutes out of your own time to take this assessment. Now here's what we can learn from it. And without that person on the other end, all of your questions might not be answered by a simple report, or I've seen some of these reports, and I know you have. They can be really confusing, and so they can be. Some of them use language that is not language that we use every day, and so there may be misinterpretations or meaning that's being missed or potential that's being missed or something that you're just thinking flat out wrong about when it comes to the assessment.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

So I will say, too, that we do know, especially from the research with assessments like the NEO, that reassessment is nice, nice re-evaluation is nice, and I know probably all of our listeners have gone through different phases of life where we're early career, mid-career, late career, we're having children or we're taking a kind of sabbatical. All of these, we've lost someone close to us or something close to us. All of these big life events do make changes in us, and for good reason. You wouldn't want to stay static right. You learn and grow and you continue to do that throughout your lifetime.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

Have seen, you know, I'll give someone the same assessment they had maybe five, six years prior and we'll learn new things. We'll continue to learn how their environment, how their experiences continue to shape them and I think that carries a lot of hope with it. It may be that someone is coming back because I know, you know, we'll get into burnout, but because they're feeling burned out or they're not in the best place. But a reevaluation, I think, still brings hope, because we know that the brain is pliable and can continue to change with the right resources and support.

Jay Johnson:

Staticity is something that I find to be really interesting in relation to a lot of assessments, because for so many of the assessments, we see something like looking at the validity and reliability scales and the idea that, hey, you know, if you take this assessment and then six months later you take the assessment again, you're going to have virtually generally about the same scores and it's like, but a lot can happen in six months.

Jay Johnson:

If you would have assessed me with something let's call it March 1st of 2020, and then assessed me six months after of being in isolation, you may have gotten a very, very different set of results. So how do we navigate something like this? Because, and and and as we use this to kind of start digging into burnout you know, we do know, like Gabber Mate's research, dr Mate's research recently has been talking about, like hey, some of these issues that we're experiencing, such as burnout, well, they're probably a result of some of the different personality things that we've been scripted with when we were a kid and when we developed, and you know, our environment and so on and so forth. How do you leverage sort of this understanding of the brain that we have, this neuroplasticity that we can shift, that we can change, but the sort of I don't know, I'm going to call it the scientific need for validity and reliability in the scales Like how do you balance that, barb?

Dr. Barb Thompson:

Yeah. So we had a rule when I was last doing assessment and selection that we wanted people to reapply, because we did believe that people can change, especially given challenges that are right outside of their limits. You know that's motivating. We'll talk about motivation in regards to burnout, but if it had been more than a year before a person returned to assessment selection, we would give the entire battery again, just because it is exciting that humans continue to grow and change. And I just think that, because we are so complex, isn't it nice? Isn't it nice that we can't just be put into a box for one time and you're in that box your whole life? I certainly don't want to be put in a box. I don't think anyone else really has that desire either.

Jay Johnson:

And it's that's one of the most inspirational pieces I think that I found in my research, because I may have mentioned this before, but my research was me search.

Jay Johnson:

I wanted to figure out why I was doing what I was doing. You know, how could I navigate? Am I stuck being the person that I was at the age of 21, 25, 29, 30 and yesterday, you know, turning 43, and I look back and I go the Jay Johnson of five years ago is a very, very different Jay Johnson than is here today, and getting an understanding of sort of where I'm at on those cycles through assessments has been powerful. Now the question that I think that I would have in relation to the battery of different assessments that are available what gives you a good indication of how to select the right assessment for the right situation? Whether that is, hey, I'm trying to assess selection criteria for you know we talked a lot about high performance teams in the last one selection criteria for this or what would be some things that we would want to look out to say, hey, this is going to tell us an important aspect about whatever the situation is how do you determine which one to use?

Dr. Barb Thompson:

Yeah, a lot of times it's just remaining curious with the person that's in front of you and having the conversations. You know it's really difficult on your own, even as a psychologist or a behavioral scientist. When you are looking at yourself, it's like the lens is just a little too close. And so when you're having those conversations with people who are maybe stuck in a certain situation or desire more or are having a problem, then I think it's really important to ask good questions and to listen to what they're saying and remain curious. I know my brain immediately starts to look for answers and solutions as far as what assessment can I give them to find out more information? But a lot of times it's really in a curious conversation, asking good questions and then trying to get down to the root of the matter, and then you can look at all kinds of different assessments, some more kind of valid than others, once you know what does this person really want or really need out of this interaction? I know that's really vague, but that's where I like to start.

Jay Johnson:

Well, I think that's so smart, right, and we teach trainers and coaches hey, you really need to be audience focused. And by asking the right questions or listening, we know because one of the right questions, or listening, we know because one of the things. I think that's maybe frustrating and, as you mentioned, yes, I have created an assessment. That is not the end all be all and it's not the only assessment that we deploy, because there are different situations that require different assessments that look at different things. But I often see us get stuck and be like this is the one, this is the one assessment that rules them all.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

It's like, uh, you know, and and typically, like you said, your research was B research. Like typically, when an assessment really hits, like it gives us insight that we value, then that's the assessment we love the most and we want to share it with everyone and I think you know there's goodness in that. There's also goodness in knowing that there's a variety of assessments because there's a variety of needs.

Jay Johnson:

And I think that when we get a better understanding of those things, it really does. You know all of the different angles in which we can look. Human behavior is so complex and, to your point, sticking somebody in a box and saying, well, here you are, this is what you are, this is your script, is probably not just limiting but can be really, really damaging. So let's dig into burnout Now. When we were talking the last time, you are working with some of the highest performing teams in the entire world and I think there's so much misconception around the space of burnout. You know some people are like how can I be burned out? You know, am I just not strong enough? Am I not tough enough? Do I not have the right mentality? You know we see so much about being able to build this resilience and this tough. You know this tough mindset, et cetera. Barb, talk to me as somebody who's working with probably some of the toughest of the tough what is your experience with burnout?

Dr. Barb Thompson:

Everyone experiences burnout at some point or another, and I agree, they are so capable, so bright, so driven and yet sometimes the conditions and we'll talk about specifically what those conditions are it's just the perfect storm, right, and it leads to this kind of emotional exhaustion, like another term for burnout is depressive anxiety disorder, like it's all of the yucky things that we don't want. Anxiety disorder, like it's all of the yucky things that we don't want, you know, wrapped into one. But overall it's just this feeling of I don't know why, but I'm exhausted. Just the thought of my work typically is how we are when we talk about burnout is. It just makes me tired, you know, and it's like this chronic fatigue that also shows up in this type of anxiety, like this dread or having trouble sleeping. So it's a mixture of these kind of what we what we traditionally would see as depressive and anxious symptoms.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

But there's there's more, there's more to it. So when you look at self determination theory, it is talking about how humans are motivated and typically, if an environment allows for autonomy, so a person to feel like they have some sense of control or choice, if they feel there's a sense of competence, so they feel effective in their behavior or their tasks, or they even might feel a sense of mastery over what they're doing during the day. And, lastly, they feel relatedness, so they feel a sense of belonging or they feel connected to, like, the mission or the people that they're doing that mission with. That is what that's the environment we want, or the people that they're doing that mission with, that's the environment we want.

Jay Johnson:

And, for a number of different reasons, that triangle can get thrown off and even in the best of the best, and one of the things that I heard you say there that I think is really fascinating I'm gonna ask you to go into it. You say there that I think is is really fascinating. I'm going to ask you to go into it is. I was just listening to the Huberman lab and he was interviewing Dr Carrion and it was just they were talking about post-traumatic stress, injury and symptoms and how those symptoms from post-traumatic stress you know, injury show up versus from depression, and how those show up, and from heightened anxiety and from situations of burnout, et cetera. Like we can experience these symptoms.

Jay Johnson:

How do we know that we're in burnout and not in depressive anxiety disorder, for example, or how do we? What is the distinguishing characteristic Cause? It's almost just like I know how I'm feeling inside, but how do I quantify that or what would I look at? So maybe, if we talk about some of those different conditions that you had mentioned, what, what distinguishes me feeling burned out versus maybe I'm just anxious or stressed or sad or what? How do we, how do we get through that?

Dr. Barb Thompson:

So when we we did start to measure it, because, you know, especially after COVID I think COVID was it was this crazy combination of, you know, an unknown fear. So I think everyone was feeling a lack of control or lack of sense of control and autonomy. So that part of the triangle, that piece of the triangle, was already kind of tipping in a direction we didn't want it to Right. And then, with certain mandates Now I'm just saying this from a human perspective, not a political one at all Right, like, sometimes rules are put in place to, you know, to keep everyone safe. But I'm just saying that, especially in high performing teams, when these people have more or less earned their autonomy and their freedom, and then blanket compliance is required, no matter what, that again gets that triangle really tipping in the wrong direction.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

But we saw it symptomatically as people not enjoying their work as much. We saw their drive decrease. And then I think what the world saw too, and we did too we were not, it was, it was not absent was this quiet, quitting. So you would show up at where, typically in the morning, like for my place of work, I mean, the gym is super loud, guys are getting there early, they're working out hard. You know they're ready to face the day like it's quiet there's no one here.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

People are coming in late, not showing up at all right, or going home early, so those were the type of symptoms. And then just lack of excitement, lack of connection while they're at work. So if you're thinking to yourself, oh wait, that sounds, I mean, maybe not exactly like me, but a little bit like me then those are typically the symptoms of burnout. And the way that we measure that is not just that emotional component of the feeling exhausted or tired or just like when you think of work, it's just this fatigue you cannot explain. That's the emotional piece of it, but it's also just like a lack of empathy. And then it's isolation from from either the people you serve or you know the people that you work with, and then a lack of feeling like you've achieved anything. You're like you can't pinpoint the tasks you're doing connected to something good.

Jay Johnson:

Right. So that's really where and it's so funny that you say this, because every single organization that I've ever consulted they think that quiet quitting is just on them Like I don't understand. It's just, you know, we have all of this, we have this quiet and it's just like. No, this is a phenomenon that is extending well beyond and it's almost like at some point in time it's like okay, listen, you're not alone.

Jay Johnson:

I've worked with NASA, I've worked with Nikon, I've worked with Ford, I've worked with all of these other entities and they're experiencing the exact same thing that you are, because it's human and guess what? You employ humans. So I'd love to hear I don't love to hear it, because it is one of those things where obviously you don't want any organization, any entity to be experiencing this, things where obviously you don't want any organization, any entity to be experiencing this. But it is nice to know that, hey, even in somewhere like the military or somewhere where we would expect that you know the toughest of the tough, and so on and so forth, that they still have that experience, because it does, it does it kind of humanizes it for all of us and obviously we all need to overcome it, we all need to sort of, you know, maybe not look at it as the enemy, but I like to tell people what is burnout telling you, right Like, if you pretend burnout is your friend, what is it communicating to you?

Jay Johnson:

And I want to go to one of the things that you said specifically. Purpose is what I heard, right Like that the work that I'm doing has meaning, that it's contributing at a level that is meaningful not only to myself, but to my legacy, to my team, to the organization, to the mission, whatever that might be. How is it, you know, how is it that when we experience sort of that purpose, or when we see ourselves aligned with that purpose, that it almost gives us this superhuman capacity to work 16 hours and feel like we're in flow, but when we don't have that, we work for 16 minutes and we're like I am done. How does that play out in our brain, barb?

Dr. Barb Thompson:

like I am done. How does that play out in our brain, barb? Yeah, it's, it's um. So I know a lot of people talk about, like, uh, carrots and sticks. As far as motivating people, you know, and and I'm sure many people who listen to this podcast have heard the terms extrinsic motivation or motivators, versus intrinsic motivation or or motivators, and so it is a continuum. Extrinsic, completely extrinsic motivators are things that are basically in your environment and just there to either reward or punish you. Um, can they get you going? Like, will a child clean his room if you threaten them with taking away something? They love? Probably, but will they do it well? Will they love to do it? Probably not, right, and I'm just taking, because that's an easy example, right?

Jay Johnson:

Have everything under the bed, so that way I can get back to Xbox right.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

Totally. Yeah, everything looks great, but don't open the closet. Now. A lot of companies, though, when they're under pressure, like they were for COVID, or quite like all of these kind of really grand, oh gosh, just situations and and experiences that we were having, as you know, a world together, um, they can get desperate and they lean on these extrinsic motivators like punishment and rewards, and and uh, people just aren't motivated long term by extrinsic rewards. Um, it would be probably easier if we were, but our brains brains are not, they don't work that way.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

Now, as you go further towards the intrinsic, um end of the spectrum, these are things that we find true enjoyment and satisfaction in, and, um, one step below that, maybe, um, maybe we don't find, you're like, how am I supposed to find work that I'm naturally, you know, enjoying? It is out there, you're. I think your assessment can help people with kind of finding out what drives them as an individual and and kind of to what degree. But just under, that would be an alignment with what you believe or value to be important. And so, when we're talking about this feeling of exhaustion, I like to just, in my head, have an arrow that leads right to examination much of it. The feeling is awful, it feels terrible, it feels new and different, but it's not the end and you can, things can change. In other words, and with that assessment or examination, I would say, like when people come to me and we've had a lot of them, this happens frequently when people leave the military as well because that triangle was perfectly in place people, they love a mission they cared about and something they'd been doing for a really long time, so they felt really effective and competent. In any case, giving some assessments, getting some insight and then making a plan are some simple, really simple ways that we can all start to fight burnout. In this case, I do believe that a values exercise we can talk about.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

There are assessments that look at what type of tasks give you joy and energy. So I, I like those. You can also have a conversation about the specific tasks that people actually enjoy doing that maybe other teammates don't like. They might look at and say, like I hate using Excel. You're like, oh, I love it, like when the numbers line up and everything works out just like that. You know, I'm not one of those people, so it's hard for me to talk about that task. Yeah, but there are people out there? Right, there are. We are different in that way that some tasks during a day bring us joy and energy and some of them strain us.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

I think it's important to learn about those because that starts to get you some of this insight into what is intrinsically motivating you versus extrinsically motivating you. And we want to get as close to intrinsic as we can because that's what is like rocket fuel for your motivation and it lasts. You know it's long term motivation, and so a values exercise would be just under kind of those tasks that give you joint energy. And then, ultimately, you do want to learn about what drives you, as you know, a human being, to learn about what drives you as a human being, if you want to kind of keep the long view on.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

I don't ever want to feel like burnout, this burnout again, right, and so what can I learn that's really going to make a difference in the way that I approach my environment or learn from my environment, or even adjust my environment, which I did try to make. I usually try to make adjustments in the environment first, like get the insight, let's see what we can do to adjust your environment. Maybe bring in some of the leadership, because wouldn't it be nice to know that your leaders know that triangle autonomy, competence and relatedness Because many times, especially in smaller organizations or on smaller teams, they can be that missing link, like for when people aren't feeling a personal achievement or they're not feeling that their tasks have purpose right, or they're not feeling like they have choice about what they do during the day or when they do it. Leaders can really get involved in that way if they have this education and make the environment a little bit more flexible. It is more complex that way, but hopefully it also leads to more intrinsically motivated people, which has endless benefits.

Jay Johnson:

Well, and it's so interesting because I think that you really bring in some great insight there and I think that this is something that every trainer, every coach can really take away. Oftentimes the extrinsic motivators are necessary but not sufficient for motivation. Right Like I can't underpay you for the rest of your life and expect you to stay in this job or anything else like that. I can't you know, I can't give you unlimited PTO at the cost of you know something else. So these are necessary.

Jay Johnson:

There's almost like a litmus of and I know that there's some pretty good literature that talks about like, at certain thresholds, that's as much joy or motivation that you're going to get out of different extrinsic type motivation tools, carrots and sticks and then you're going to have resistance, resentment, disengagement or anything else before you get into you know, even something like quiet quitting. But that intrinsic side of things Now you know you had mentioned the assessment that we do, the behavioral elements one. One of the things that we found and this was across a couple of different studies is that people that tend to have a strong drive to bond were at a higher propensity for experiencing burnout and burnout-related symptoms.

Jay Johnson:

Now, when we sat down and did some interviewing with them now, some of them were in the healthcare space. We know that the drive to bond is very, very prominent in healthcare. It's very, very prominent in education, particularly frontline teachers. One of the things that was really fascinating and when we did a content analysis of the interview and sort of like, looked at the language used, it was almost uniform. Not only were they carrying around their own emotions, but they were carrying around the emotions of their team. They were getting down on themselves, feeling shame or guilt that they weren't doing enough to bring other people up, et cetera. So when we think about something like burnout, what's your experience maybe in thinking about?

Jay Johnson:

because that relatedness, that connectedness, that we have if we feel disconnected, that obviously can drive different burnout symptoms. But is it possible that that's a two-way street, Like if we feel overly connected, that we almost like absorb the other exhaustion or the other energy that's around us? What do you think on that?

Dr. Barb Thompson:

You know, I love that. I didn't know that you had done that research. But I think what that points out is that when people have a really high drive for connectedness or relatedness, you know, automatically they take on this role of like I'm, I'm the caretaker, I'm the motivator, and so what they have now is a double edged sword. When other people are feeling down, they feel like their personal achievement has gone down too Right. So that's two out of the three of you know what we know to be kind of like that self-determination theory, that they're not feeling competent in their role to bring people alongside or motivate or make them feel good. So that's kind of my take on it.

Jay Johnson:

Well, that makes a lot of sense, because let's think about healthcare in a time of COVID, when there was no solution or when there was no opportunity. I mean, we saw burnout scales just massively increase.

Jay Johnson:

It's like, okay, well, now I'm not competent in my job because I can't solve this crisis. And now I'm looking around and I'm seeing all of these other people who so I think it's something like 72% of frontline nurses that have taken the behavioral elements assessment show water, the drive to bond, primary element. So I mean you're talking almost three, three, you know three fourths Teachers actually hire frontline teachers 78% of them show. So you're talking about two industries that definitely have talked about experience burnout.

Jay Johnson:

I didn't think about it's brilliant what you just said and kind of gave me some insights. I didn't think about them feeling like I'm not successful in what I'm doing, because teachers were having that same struggle during COVID, like how can I teach, how can I actually connect with students, how can I do this? So it's not just the relatability, but it could also be that sort of I'm not winning in my position either, or I'm not being effective in that position. Oh, that's insightful, all right. So, barb, I know that we don't have too much time here what are some of the ways that you would encourage or help people make that shift necessary to maybe get them on the right track for reducing their burnout or burnout related symptoms?

Dr. Barb Thompson:

Yeah, I would say that some of them. I'll just highlight them. I think we've talked about all the practical kind of tips that I would give, but the first is just to normalize that even people at the very highest levels, the bravest, strongest people in the world, they have been burned out right. They have felt burnout, just like you. So I think that's really important and cannot be understated, that this is not a you problem, this is just a problem right?

Dr. Barb Thompson:

Secondly, we know that one of the really important pieces to motivation is relatedness. So my advice would be no matter how smart you are and how driven you are, this is not a problem you want to do alone, because that's just not smart. In this case, part of what helps us feel motivated is that connection and relatedness, and so when you're trying to solve this problem, you need to involve other people. And then, thirdly, I would say that you and I have outlined some tools that I know people will try to Google on their own, but it'd be great if you could, when you're involving people, just involve people that know or have experience, and I think that your time will not be wasted. So, examination, include other people, take an assessment or two to get some insight and then make a plan, just like you would make a plan for something else, and we know that these things work.

Jay Johnson:

Such incredible insight, and thank you again, barb, for coming back on the show. I think this was something so important to talk about because we as trainers, as coaches and organizational leaders feel it, but so do our teams and the people that are sitting across from us, and we know the impact of burnout on learning, on growing, on effectiveness in the workplace, so your insights have been so incredibly powerful here today. I just want to say thank you again for being here with us.

Dr. Barb Thompson:

Thank you. I am really excited for people to hear this conversation and hopefully they'll have more questions for you to just keep diving into. I think that it is a really important topic and we shouldn't stop talking about it just because in the mass media we're not talking about it as much as we were in 2022. I think it's still a problem. So thanks for having me.

Jay Johnson:

Thank you, barb, and we'll look forward to talking again, hopefully soon, here on the Talent Forge, where we are shaping the future of training and development.

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Jay Johnson, CEO and Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements

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