The Talent Forge: Shaping the Future of Training and Development with Jay Johnson

The Dance of Authentic Leadership: Embracing Your Whole Self at Work with Dr. Jennifer Nash

• Jay Johnson • Season 1 • Episode 38

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Dr. Jennifer Nash takes us on a profound journey into what it truly means to lead with humanity in today's complex workplace. Drawing from her background in piano, dance, foreign languages, and eventually the automotive industry, she shares how these seemingly divergent paths converged to form her unique leadership philosophy.

Nash reveals the powerful concept behind her book "Be Human, Lead Human," explaining that authentic leadership begins with recognizing that people—not products or services—create organizational value. She articulates how organizations function best when viewed as spaces where people both work and evolve as human beings, rather than merely delivering output.

For talent development professionals, Nash offers fresh perspectives on how to incorporate personal passions into professional practice. 

Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com

Jay Johnson:

Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge, where we are shaping the future of training and development. Today, I have a special guest, Dr. Jennifer Nash, who is a leadership consultant and an award-winning and best-selling author of the book Be Human, lead Human. Welcome to the show, jennifer.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Thank you so much for having me, Jay. I'm delighted to be here.

Jay Johnson:

All right. So we heard a little bit about you. You're an author, you're a consultant and I love the title Be Human, lead Human. So we're going to dig into that a little bit. But let's let the audience get to know you a little bit better. How did you make your way into this space and into talent development and into consulting and coaching?

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

You know, Jay, I really feel like I've been doing this work my entire life. I just didn't know, like, what it was called or what the path was to get there. And so I think, like all of us, you know, we start out doing the things that we love and, over time, like everything just sort of comes together into that puzzle where it creates a space where we're playing in the space where we play to our strengths and we're in flow. And so for me, like I started out my career in the automotive industry, and one of the things that helped me be very successful there was my ability to listen and observe, and so I came from a background that you know was more on the like art side of the house. So I have a background in piano and dance and foreign languages.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

So going into the business world for me it was like going into this strange universe where people were speaking languages that I didn't understand, and so I just really wanted to understand that. So I spent a lot of time observing and I spent a lot of time listening, and that got me to a point where, at one point in my career, I was working at a four motor company and I had a leader at that time who was the most unique leader that I'd never had before, and it really started me thinking about you know, how do we get people to develop them in this way, where they are so effective? And so that took me on a journey to like look at my MBA. It took me on a journey to my PhD. And then it took me on a journey to my PhD, and then it took me on a journey to write. Be human, leave human to share everything that I had learned and observed with as many people as I possibly can.

Jay Johnson:

That's an incredible story. So I've actually done work with Ford Motor Company and that long story. But it's so funny how you kind of like I love the way that you framed it it's just like what felt comfortable, what got you towards that flow. When I was at Wayne State University we had a partnership with Ford Motor Company for an engineering management master's program and I was working on that and at one point in time my boss came to me and said hey, we're having this issue with, like, international students and performance and you study behavior. Can you check it out and see what's going on?

Jay Johnson:

And I did this program and I quickly learned from, like in classroom observation and some interviews, that there was this cultural disconnect between the international students coming in and the faculty at Wayne State University. So I created a training program for the students and onboarding, and then I also created a training program for the faculty on cultural adaptability. It was really successful. All of a sudden, like, the students start performing and a faculty member comes up to me, pats me on the back and says, hey, you're pretty good at this, you should do this for a living. That's how I got into trade. That is one I was like maybe I will. Yeah, I understand, but but it did. It felt so natural and just felt like the right space to be in, and I love helping people and I love solving challenges.

Jay Johnson:

So let's talk about a couple of things, and I want to go back to the study of music, the study of language and everything else, because you do some different trainings that incorporate a lot of that knowledge and a lot of that experience that you have. But before we go there, I want to dig in just a little bit in your bio, in your book title and in even a number of the things that I heard you say. You reference human and it seems to me that you're a really strong people person and you know, in making that connection and making that you know, be you know even from the title of your book, be Human, lead Human. Let's dig into that. I'd like to get to know you a little bit more from that perspective, and I'm sure the audience would too. Where does this interest or where does this sort of like direction come from for you?

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

You mean like from a perspective of like. Why is the human element keep coming up to the forefront for me?

Jay Johnson:

Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Yeah. So I think there's a couple reasons. I think one is you know how I grew up and the things that were prioritized in my first family and the values that were there. I think that has a big part to do with that. I also think that as I went through my education, you know, there were certain things that would elevate that human element and there were other things that would sort of, you know, decrease it, and I saw that happen in the workplace as well.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

It was almost like when I went into the business world I had to leave part of myself at the door because it wasn't safe to show the other talents and skills and capabilities that I was bringing, because I felt very vulnerable and it didn't feel like it was a place where I could share those things. Yet those were the things that really helped me stand out and be that outstanding performer, you know, because I had all those different, unique skills and abilities that most people around me didn't have, and so I thought a little bit differently and it helped me change my performance and I saw that that wasn't the case, maybe, for people around me. So when I would get feedback like, oh, you've just got to have a thicker skin or, oh, you know, um, you just need to get out of your own way. Um, you know, I would get a lot of feedback like that. Or, you know, the team has just been waiting for you to like catch up with them, like where are you, you know? So I would get a lot of feedback that sort of didn't jive with me feeling safe to bring my whole self to work, and so a lot of the people that I coach now, you know, I hear that reflected in different ways Like I'm not, I don't feel safe at work, physically or psychologically.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

I don't feel, um, like I can be my emotional self, right, I don't feel like I can display my emotions, because if I display them in a certain way, that I'm looked at as being aggressive, if I display them in a different way, that I'm looked at as being weak, and that dynamic continues in all these different areas. And so, you know, one of the things that I hear most often from the leaders that I coach is that I have to be perfect, I have to know all of the answers, I have to have all of the answers, and I think, when it comes to being a leader, you know who we are as a leader has everything to do with who we are as a human being. So if we can't be our human selves when we show up and lean into that leadership identity, then we're doing a disservice to ourselves and we're doing a disservice to the people around us and we're doing a disservice to the world at large.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, and I want to draw some parallels there, you know, with our audience. I guarantee there's somebody out there that's listening right now. Whether you're a coach, whether you're a trainer, whether you're the HR person in your organization, I guarantee that they have felt that same sting of like oh my gosh, I have to know everything. I got to be perfect, I got to do this, you know, and, and what a, what a difficult, you know what a difficult experience to sort of regulate Right, and we wonder why imposter syndrome is constantly, you know, rising in different places.

Jay Johnson:

But you know, what I'm hearing you speak to is the psychological safety and and and immediately I kind of came to, uh, I kind of came to that of, uh, you know, Dr Edmondson's work and even of Dr Brown's work, Brene Brown, and that sort of our ability to show up as ourselves.

Jay Johnson:

There's nothing more powerful than that, both for the organization but also for the individual who is, you know, seeking to be valued and seen and heard. So you came from a number you know, Ford Motor Company, which is a strong engineering and technical company and I've even seen, you know, in your, in your bio you also have worked with, like IBM and Google, and and a number of Boeing and a number of other ones, and in those environments, especially the manufacturing space, I've seen that sort of I don't want to call it the macho behavior, almost the yeah, put your head down, get your work done, Don't complain, Don't do anything, Don't have feelings until you check out at 5 pm. We know how damaging that is to both the individuals, to cultural, psychological safety. What are some of the things that maybe you did to overcome some of that challenge, Jennifer, Because I think that that would be really insightful for people that maybe are experiencing the same thing.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Yeah, you know that's a great question and the answering that makes me really vulnerable. You know, one of the first things I would say is that I didn't realize the damage that it was doing to me, because I would always feel like when I went into work, when I first started my career in the business world, when I went into work, I would literally feel like, okay, I'm getting dressed and I am literally putting on my armor, I'm putting on my suit, because at the time I worked at EDS and so we had to wear business professional dress, right, so men's hair could not be below their collar, shoes had to be shined, women had to wear pantyhose. I mean, it was a very you know, very hierarchical, very militaristic kind of culture at the time, and so to help protect myself psychologically, I would think, okay, I'm putting on my suit, right, this is my armor, this is going to protect me today, and I'd walk in the door. Now I knew that when I was there, I got my first job there because I spoke French, and so I was working with French Canadian dealers and sorry, I should say automotive, french Canadian automotive dealers and helping them diagnose their vehicles through the service stalls that were in the technician and the dealerships. So, even though I wasn't physically on site with the dealers, it was just something that allowed me to change my mindset of okay, this is the identity I'm going to have here at work. This is me. I get to bring in this part of me, the foreign language part, that loves that and interacting with people and getting to know them and learning who they are and learn their stories and then help support them in solving their problems.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

And, at the same time, what I was evaluated on was how quickly I was solving their problem on the phone. And so the time it would take me to build the relationship with that client or the customer and help them solve their problem, and why I was so good at what I did was exactly why I was being evaluated negatively because I was taking too long in building the relationship. I wasn't approaching it from a an American business style of, oh, let's just solve your problem long in building the relationship. I wasn't approaching it from an American business style of oh, let's just solve your problem and get off the phone. That's not how it works in a lot of other parts of the world.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

And so there were these elements that always kept popping up and reminding me that, even though I'm trying to be human and I'm trying to connect with people and I'm trying to be human and I'm trying to connect with people and I'm trying to build those relationships, I was constantly getting messaging that my KPIs were off. So that was one of the ways that I would try to counteract that right. I would try to spend more time on the relationship building, even though I was getting knocked out on that from a performance perspective. Another way that I would that I would build into my work day to help me, like, get grounded was I always love being outside. I love being outdoors. I love being in nature we were just talking about. You know the fact that you live on this beautiful lake and you know how much I miss the trees and the freshwater lakes in Michigan, and so I would always try to just get outside on my lunch hour and go for some kind of walk in nature, whatever I could find around the business building.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

It's so powerful it's so powerful and it would just help me shift Right and it would remind me and ground me and center me that this is still me, like I am still here, like my whole being is still here, right, and that psychologically, would help me. And then I think the third thing that helped me was just really understanding, like, how hard it was for me to try to be two different people, right, that I'd have to be this identity in this person at work, that I couldn't be my whole self and I had to leave, you know, part of that self outside the door. And that emotional labor of trying to do that after a certain point it just got to be too much for me and so I decided to look for a job in a different place where I could bring, bring more of myself to work and that my different, unique background wasn't viewed as maybe it was viewed as more of a positive in that way.

Jay Johnson:

You know and thank you for thank you. You for sharing that because I think it's so important for people to hear it and I know that you know tapping into that vulnerability. I really appreciate you and having the courage to kind of talk about some of those things because I don't think that they're talked about enough. You know, we know from the research in psychological literature, let alone the neuroscientific literature, about the impact, the impact on our brain it has when we have to compartmentalize aspects of our identity or essentially shelter them or hide them or suppress them, and what that actually does to our physical and emotional and even mental well being. And we know that it's, we know that it's devastating.

Jay Johnson:

And yet this, these, these practices, in many cases still exist in a number of different workplaces. So kudos to you for being able to navigate that, being able to find that path. So your book title is Be Human, lead Human, if you could. What does it mean to lead human? If you can help our audience maybe understand what are some of the concepts of leading human. So I are some of the concepts of leading human.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

So I think one of the concepts of leading human first and foremost is believing that it's people that create the value in the organization. So, in contrast to maybe the older old school thinking that it's products and services that create value, leading human a principle of that is that you believe that people create value. So if you don't have the people, you can't create the products, you can't create the services, you can't create the strategy. So starting with that is your core and then it goes out from there. So a second principle is when you lead human, you believe that an organization is a place where people come to grow and evolve, as well as they come to work and deliver output.

Jay Johnson:

I like that.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Yes, and that's in contrast to the old school thinking, where people just came to work, to work, that's all they did and then they went home right, because there were no other dimensions to the person.

Jay Johnson:

It's a much more holistic way to actually look at, because we spend a lot of our life and we know that we have limited number of breaths that we get to take. We spend a lot of those at work or in work, and to be able to yeah, that's super powerful. I really like that framing.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Yes, so that's the second one. There's 10 of them, but those are the first two. So when I talk about leading human, it is a way to think about and practice leadership that diverges the old school command and control model and puts you into a place of being more of a coach and facilitator, because the role of a leader is actually evolving. To be that coach and facilitator and help people understand how AI is impacting them, how it impacts their role, sort of be that translator for them to see how can they use AI to help them perform at their best and use more of their human skills. Right, what makes us human? Ai is fantastic because it's going to take all of that administrabia, take over all of that, so we can spend our time doing more of what makes us human that creativity, that collaboration, that innovation, all of those things that you know AI isn't necessarily good at.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

And I think there's a piece around like that leading human, which it's also this idea of. You can make mistakes, right, it's okay to make a mistake. It's okay to not know everything. It's not realistic to know everything at this point, because things are changing so quickly. You can't know everything. And so, as a leader, when you adopt that mindset and you accept the fact that I can't know everything, and it's okay to not know everything, and it's also okay to make mistakes, because we're human, we're fallible. That gives everyone else around you the permission and the role they see, that role model behavior, to also be human themselves. So that's what I mean by lead human, be human, be human, lead human.

Jay Johnson:

That makes a lot of sense. You know, and it's interesting that you talk about sort of the shift for leaders. You know, and a lot of and a lot of what. And help me understand, and maybe you've seen this in your space. You know, when we look at something like the leadership function and I'm not even just talking about executive leadership, I mean like first level managers we see a lot of people getting moved into leadership positions, usually because they were great at performing, they did something awesome.

Jay Johnson:

They get bumped up and then they realize and then within like I think it's a study that says like within 18 months they're seen as underperforming. And part of it is is the difference in skill set, right To manage a group of people versus being an individual contributor obviously very different. If you're seeing this sort of emerging trend of leaders becoming more coaches, more facilitators, those are obviously very different skills, as our audience on this podcast is going to know, because a lot of them are facilitators, coaches, trainers. Cast is going to know, because a lot of them are facilitators, coaches, trainers. Have you seen two questions here? Have you seen either a little bit of resistance from leadership? Do they see that as their sort of pathway to the future? And then the second question is how can we, as talent development professionals, prepare leaders to essentially do what we're good at usually, you know, coaching, training, facilitating, etc.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Yeah. So I think the first part of that question is really around how leaders are thinking about the role of a leader. How do they identify that? And if that identity is shifting and changing, then what does it mean for them as a person? What does it mean for them as a human? How is their identity shifting and changing? And what I'm finding with the clients I'm working with is that they're not comfortable, like we're not comfortable with change. For the most part, they want to go back to status quo. They want to go back to what they know, and what they know is command and control, because that's what they observed, it's what they learned, it's what they mimicked, it's what they role modeled, and there aren't that many other examples for them to see that are divergent.

Jay Johnson:

Do you think it's also on some level and I've seen this before in some and maybe not all, but some leaders, I think, go back to that command and control because it seems easier, right, Like it's just, like. No, just do what I say and then I don't have to explain, I don't have to justify, I don't have to give information, I don't have to go through the rigmarole of collaboration, it's just get it done. And I, going back to what we were talking about earlier, I think there are some organizations that still reward that kind of behavior. But you know, from that, from that perspective, is that sort of the resistance, you know, the piece to the resistance of no, I just want to get this done because I can do it fast, as opposed to putting the effort in of collaborating, communicating, connecting, or is it something else? That's sort of creating that resistance?

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

I think there's a couple of things that create that resistance. I think, first and foremost, our performance systems and organizations are broken. So when we look at how we evaluate and reward people for their performance, we typically ask them right now, these days, to collaborate in teams, but we evaluate them individually. So that's a disconnect right there, number one. So there is no incentive in most organizations for people to operate differently, honestly, for lack of a better term.

Jay Johnson:

We need the old report card that says does not play well in the sand with others.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Exactly exactly Like if you look at anybody's report card these days. Is there anything on there about how well do you coach, how well do you facilitate? How well do you help your people collaborate? How well do you solve problems as a team? Like there's nothing on there. It's typically all individual. So that's the first thing. I think the second thing is around. It's scary to do something new and when you don't have the tools in your toolbox to even try something new and you don't have any resources around you to help guide you and advise you, when you're try something new and you don't have any resources around you to help guide you and advise you when you're trying something new, it's a scary place and organizations will eject outliers. So if you're in a system and you're operating differently from what that system knows is a status quo or the default, you're going to get out. You're going to get. You're going to get ejected from the system. That's number two, and I think number three is there is still a mindset of well, this is how we've always done it.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

So this is how we've always done it and it seems to be working, then why would we change? So I think it's a combination of, like the external drivers, the internal motivators and this mindset shift that needs to take place.

Jay Johnson:

And that makes a lot of sense, right, like when we think about change and its impact on us. Human beings do not love uncertainty, and ultimately, it's usually some kind of uncertainty that brings us back to the status quo because of the comfortability and because, hey, I can predict this and our ancient, ancient brain is going if I can predict it, I can survive it. If I can't predict it, well, who knows? It's all up in the air, so I can see that being a heavy piece of resistance. So how do we get leaders to sort of take this role of getting, hey, you know what? This is the future, this is going to help you, this is going to help your culture, this is going to take us forward Because, again, some of our audience is in that sort of coaching space of working with these leaders. How do we get them to buy into this and to be good at it?

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Right? So I'm going to tell you a very brief story that I tell in the book, and it's it has as its lever for motivating people into why they should do this as a quantitative outcome. Right, because what most organizations are looking at is the bottom line. For motivating people into why they should do this as a quantitative outcome right, because what most organizations are looking at is the bottom line. So if it doesn't impact the bottom line, they're not interested. And most organizations are still operating that way, right?

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

So when I was at Ford, I was working in a certain department and the economy was pretty bad at the time and our department decided that they would have a appreciation day for employees to try to boost morale and boost engagement. And so they bought some of these paper plates and they put them on tables in the main floor, in the main hallway, and they invited everyone to come down and fill out a paper plate. And they wanted it to be a plate of appreciation. So they wanted you to write a note to someone else about what you appreciated about them and give it to them. I'm like great, I think this is fantastic. So I go down there and I'm thinking about who am I going to write my plate to, and at the time Ford had just celebrated its 100th anniversary and Bill Ford had stepped down from the CEO role and he had brought in Alan Mulally to run the company. And Alan had his hands full because things were not doing so well. The company had just lost $17 billion and we were basically trying to stay afloat. So I thought, you know, I'm going to write my plate to Alan because he could probably use a hug right now. He's got a pretty tough job going on and he probably doesn't have, you know, very many people that he can talk to about it, because it's pretty lonely up at that top of the house. So I wrote my plate to him and I said you know, dear alan, you know, thank you for being this change that we needed to see. You know to so we can survive another hundred years.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

So I decorated this plate with some superman stickers and I stuck it in an inner office envelope and I, like, know, use that twine to make the little figure. And then I stuck the confidential sticker over that and I addressed it to World Tech Orders and, you know, sent it off and so and I didn't think of anything else on it. So a couple of weeks later, I get this voice message and actually no. So I get sorry. I get this voice message and it's like my boss's boss's boss asking me to come down to their office. And I'm like, oh boy, you know, because at this time, like bad right, the economy is really bad and everyone has boxes under their desk because they don't know if they're going to be let go that day. So I get this message and I'm like, oh, this isn't really what I wanted to hear. So I like, you know, I have this pit in my stomach, you know.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

So I'm walking down to this boss's office and, um, there, when I get there, there's a round table in the middle of the room. In the middle of the table there was an inner office envelope and there's like three or four leaders standing around the table. And, jay, I looked at that office envelope and I knew exactly what it was and it was open. And one of the leaders says you know, we, um, you know, we understand this is from you. And I'm like, yes, it is. And they're like we can't get this to Alan. I said, well, what do you mean? You can't get it to Alan? Like, did interoffice, did we let the interoffice mail people go, like I know things are tough, but like you know what, why not? And they said, well, we just, you know, we don't think it's appropriate. So we're going to ask you to take it back.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

And I was not happy about that, to say the least. Yeah, and so I said, okay, well, on one hand I didn't lose my job, so I guess that's good, but on the other hand, like they're basically telling me that my voice doesn't matter, and I'm really not happy about that. So I I I said nothing else. I took it back. I walked out of their office. I walked straight out to my car. I got in my car and went over to world headquarters, went up to the 12th floor. Alan wasn't in, so I asked his admin if she could please give him this envelope when he got back and she said, sure, no problem. And so I walked. But, you know, I went back down the 12 stairs, walked back to my car and went back to my desk.

Jay Johnson:

Good for you.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Yeah. And so a couple weeks later, you know, I'm like I get this voicemail on my phone and it's actually Alan and he's telling me how much this plate of appreciation meant to him. And then he has a tear in his eye because it just moved him so much. And I am shocked because here's this guy who's trying to save the company. I'm this people leader far down the ladder that he has never even met, and yet he takes the time to thank me for doing something that I did for him. This was amazing to me. This is 16 years that I've been working at this point in business and this is the first time that I saw a leader who acted this way.

Jay Johnson:

It's such a powerful story.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

I couldn't believe it. And so, and it continues, and so a couple of weeks later, I get an interoffice envelope in the mail and it's stuffed full of stuff. And so I opened it up and there's all this sports swag in it. And, and so I opened it up and there's all this Ford swag in it. And the best part about it is that there's this letter, handwritten letter, in this envelope and it says, dear Jennifer, and it has a heart around the Jennifer. And it says, you know just whatever his message was. And then it said you know, alan, and I just I sat back in my chair and I just started crying because this was the first time that, like, I felt seen and I felt that I mattered in an organization, and it was a leader like Alan who took the time to make me feel that way.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

And I just really wanted to understand why are there not more leaders like this? Why do we not have more leaders that take a couple seconds out of their day or a couple minutes out of their day to do these simple gestures that help people feel that they matter and that what they do makes a difference, and that it wasn't just the output that I could deliver for Ford Motor Company. That mattered it was that I was a human being who had all these different facets to me, and he took the time to recognize that and see that, and that was the catalyst for me to go back and finish my MBA. It was the catalyst for me to go back and do my PhD and study what makes outstanding leaders differentiated from average leaders, and it was the catalyst for me to write this book and share everything that I learned about how can leaders rethink what they think about leadership and what that looks like.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

And so when you look at Alan's tenure at Ford Motor Company, at the end of his tenure the stock price had gone up 1,837%. His employee engagement rates had gone from 40% to 93%. Now it takes very little time to do what he did, and yet he managed to change the entire culture at Ford Motor Company by just simply being more human and leading human, and he got those kinds of top and bottom line results. So I would ask all of the HR people that's listening to this and all of the coaches and facilitators if you can get those kinds of results, why would you not want to follow a leadership approach like this that optimizes performance? And if they can do it at Ford Motor Company in an organization that was so hierarchical and so top down from a leadership style, it should be possible in many other organizations.

Jay Johnson:

There's so much power in what you just said.

Jay Johnson:

And I'm thinking about it because when I first started doing work with Ford, it was 2003. And I actually had the opportunity to meet with Alan multiple times and every single time I'm like I'm standing here in front of the CEO and he knows my name, and he says my name and he asks me what my thought was when we were doing some consulting projects through the university inside of there, and he's like well, what, what do you think, jay? And I'm like I just got asked by the CEO, my opinion I am, you know, this is in God, this is literally I'm, I'm, I'm a 20 something year old and I'm like why are you even asking me the like I was in awe and the, the entire, the entire implementation of the one Ford during that time, and to your point, the a skip level meeting, going just one above your boss at that point in time, was a hell worthy trespass, you know. So I I can imagine like the looks on your boss's boss's boss face when, when it's like what do you? This is like the ultimate skip, right.

Jay Johnson:

I am so impressed that you had the, the, the strength, the courage, the tenacity to say no, I'm going to drive this down, I'm going to drop it off and everything and I don't. I wouldn't claim to know him well or anything like that, but anytime that I had interacted with him I would have bet bottom dollar that he would have appreciated that gesture. Just so to hear you confirm that really honestly warms my heart. But yeah, what an incredible story, jennifer.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Yeah, yeah. And so you know I share that story. You know, not to toot my own horn, but to show that like this is not soft and fluffy. This is not woo-woo, this is not kumbaya. This is an actual approach to leadership that changes performance dramatically. And in this era where things are so competitive right, we're in this world and ai is just coming the differentiator is how we can help people interact with one another, collaborate with one another, work, collaborate with one another, work together effectively and deliver that outstanding performance. And it doesn't take a lot of time, it doesn't take a lot of extras, it just takes having the work and shifting the mindset that we're going to do this together. And here's how we're going to operate together and here's how we're going to interact together. And, as you know, from that one forward, we had our behaviors on that card.

Jay Johnson:

On the card.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Exactly what was expected, and if you didn't adhere to that, then everyone else in the room would hold you accountable to that.

Jay Johnson:

And correct your behavior. A self-correcting culture which is so powerful.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Exactly self-correcting culture which is so powerful, exactly so. I invite people listening If there is any any interest in driving performance that exceeds today's performance to take a look at this book. Take a look at Alan's story. It's, it's it's in many different places, right, but I talk about it in the book as well and learn. You know how can you shift the culture. Because that's what Alan did he shifted the culture, he shifted the behaviors and he demonstrated what it looks like to be a leader who coaches and facilitates to deliver that performance.

Jay Johnson:

It's the difference between going to work and executing tasks and going to work and elevating moments right, like bringing people an experience, and if you're doing that for the people at work, it generally translates to your customers, it generally translates to your suppliers. It's a ripple effect, right? And I want to go back. You said something a little ways back about how you were performing and how it didn't match up with the KPIs, and I have experienced the same thing in working with physicians and I've gotten to work with some really really high level, high level healthcare organizations everybody from Johns Hopkins to University of Michigan Health Systems and it's always fascinating to me. So one of my backgrounds or one of my degrees is in health communication and I studied the concept of narrative medicine.

Jay Johnson:

And what they did was they evaluated the difference between a doctor, a physician, a nurse or whomever who spent more time on average with their patients than the others. Well, the KPIs is you got to make sure that you're touching everybody or that you're getting enough people through the door, and so on and so forth. And when they shifted the idea of okay is the KPI how many people you see per day? Or the health outcomes of the people that you see each day, bar none, those that took the time to build the relationship, the connection, to better understand, not only were they getting more information, they were getting the information faster. And they were.

Jay Johnson:

You know, people were opening up quicker and they were giving, so they were literally matching pace with the colleagues. That was just like what's wrong, your elbow hurts. Take two of these. Call me in the morning Next, and you, they were literally matching pace with that, maybe just a little bit slower, but not even significantly or statistically significantly, but their health outcomes were leagues away from their patients to somebody else's. So it's just, it's so important and I love that you're bringing that to this space. You know, building those connections, creating those connections and really working to focus on creating a culture and environment where people are felt and seen.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Yeah, and you know the thing, the thing that I notice so often is that we have so much focus in organizations on building those technical skills right, the functional expertise, and that's table stakes. We need that. That has to be there. But what often gets omitted or not even addressed is these human and relational skills that make all the difference in combination with those technical skills. You know, I've created a masterclass that offers you know, coaches and organizations and facilitators the opportunity to help them elevate those skills right. We need that upskilling today to help people gain both the technical expertise and the human and relational pieces so they can be so effective in that way.

Jay Johnson:

I want to dig, you know, and I want to be mindful of our time here. But I do want to dig into something else. You know you had mentioned earlier on um, you know an interest in the arts and in music and you know sort of like the the beautiful cultural things of life and you've brought some of that into your work and into your space. You incorporate it into your coaching, your training, um, talk to me, what does that look like for you and how do you bring those sort of unique? Because not everybody brings. You know, everybody has a different set of interests or backgrounds or qualities and sometimes we don't feel comfortable bringing that into a space. You know, like I don't bring my hockey, you know background into a space. Sometimes that could maybe I talk about it. I'll tell a few stories. But, you know, help us understand.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

You look like Wayne Gretzky a little bit.

Jay Johnson:

That's super kind. I certainly didn't play like him.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

I'm a big Wayne Gretzky fan, by the way.

Jay Johnson:

Me too, me too. So, how do you, how do you incorporate that to bring that sort of piece of you into the space, and how would you advise maybe some of our people that have some unique characteristics or some unique aspects of their identity? How would you encourage them to bring theirs out to that space as well?

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

So I think, first and foremost, you want to be comfortable with bringing that out, because it's sharing a very personal side of you that otherwise you wouldn't show people. Yeah, so that has to be there first and foremost.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

And it took a while for me to um, you know, for I think you're talking about the dance example, right? So I I offer a course called um, you know, leadership through ballroom dance, and it's for organizations and individuals who are very forward in their thinking. Um, because it requires a very different mindset to walk into a dance studio and say that you're going to dance with someone and learn leadership that way. So I love to dance. I've actually been dancing since I was three years old.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

I started out in ballet. My mom and dad put me in ballet classes and then I did tap and jazz and toe and all of those things, and then, as an adult, I discovered ballroom dance, and so it was just a way for me to continue connecting with my body, with my brain, Because so often in the work that I do it's just a brain kind of thing, but your brain is not your body taxi. So I found a way to combine the two and do something in doing what I love and helping people think a little bit differently about leadership. Because, you know, do you want to go to a class where you're going to sit there and, like, have a seminar on, like you know, the different theories of leadership, or do you actually want to go listen to some great music and, like, dance around a store and learn leadership that way? So it's just a different way to think about it.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Um, that is actually how I decided to integrate it, and I don't know of many people who do that, and so it's just a unique differentiator for me. And you know, I I get some people who are interested in that every once in a while and, um, you know, it's really fun, I love. That's one of the favorite classes that I teach, actually.

Jay Johnson:

I absolutely love that. So I've just started incorporating one of like my kind of backgrounds, which I didn't really talk about out there. I like to do survival trips. So you know we talked a little bit about the outdoors. I will go into the woods five days, seven days, 10 days, no food, no water, and just survive.

Jay Johnson:

It's not pretty, it's not clean, it's not always, you know, sometimes it's successful. Sometimes it's not pretty, it's not clean, it's not always, you know it's, sometimes it's successful, sometimes it's not successful. But I have always found that that really helps me build my resilience, my grit, my critical thinking, my problem solving. And just this past year was the first time that I had a couple of people that I had done some consulting for and they said can we do that with you? Can you teach us? So it wasn't just about teaching the survival skills or the nature, you know, understanding nature but it's also about sort of like getting into the right headspace, getting into the right mentality, being able to not panic when something doesn't go your way or when maybe you haven't had any food for three days, and it's just like okay.

Jay Johnson:

I'm starting to get real hungry now. So I I just started to bring that into this. I've been doing this for a decade and this is the first time this year that I actually brought a little piece of that out and and shared it, and it was incredible. It was such an incredible experience. So, how do how do you? And and I love that you brought that up but, like, be comfortable with it, because, if you know, if it is something, because I didn't ever want to tell somebody, yeah, I go into the woods because and live there for you know, 10 days and they're going to probably think like, okay, are you a hermit crab? Like what are you doing? You know, what are you doing with your like health? What are you eating? Well, frogs, worms, whatever I can find.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

You know, I've I've trained at NASA and I also go and live off of bugs for five days.

Jay Johnson:

Right Like there's a disconnect. It feels like there's a disconnect. Hardcore but you know, so, like it was always something that I kind of guarded, and for me it was because I didn't, oh, no, yeah.

Jay Johnson:

So, jennifer, the question that I have is it took me a long time to be comfortable in being able to share that out and, sort of like, bring that part of my identity forward. Do you have any recommendations or thoughts of how can we be more comfortable taking that first chance or maybe leaning into being vulnerable in a space that we're not 100% certain of?

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Yeah. So I think it's a great question and I think one of the things that first comes to mind for me is there needs to be that level of trust right. There needs to be that trust between you and the client, or you and the people that are going to be receiving this training that you know for some may be really out of the box and it may be really out of their comfort zone. So, having that safe space, first of all, where you know you can bring this and it won't be rejected right, because we're all afraid of rejection and that it will be received with an open mindset, and that there's that trust there that you're bringing them something that you believe will be beneficial for them and help them get to where they want to be.

Jay Johnson:

You know, I love that because it's as true in that space as it is in any other space. At that point in time, right Like, we have to have that trust. We have to have that open sort of like agreement with each other, like, hey, I'm going to give a little of me, you're going to give a little bit of you, and we're going to meet and something beautiful is going to occur. Now I happened, and in my studies of neuroscience it's really interesting. I have actually studied a couple of the different articles that had come out about the impact of dance on the human brain and I thought it was fascinating. It's actually a really healthy practice for us to do Like if there's something with oxytocin that comes in from the social bonding aspect of it, something from the dopaminergic drive that comes from, like, the movement and everything else.

Jay Johnson:

But a lot of people are afraid to dance. How do you get somebody? And I think this has applicability in a lot of spaces. When we're taught something or when we're engaging in some form of training, sometimes we have some resistance to it. We're going to look silly, this isn't going to work, and our brain comes into place and starts putting these barriers up. How do you get people to maybe overcome some of those barriers in a really fun way, like when we're teaching through dance?

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Yeah, so you know, one of the first things I like to tell is you know the story of, you know, my husband, like he always likes to say, like he has two left feet. Well, he started dance lessons and now he's realized he does have a right foot and a left foot. He's fortunate enough to have both of his feet, and so I share that, because it takes some courage and vulnerability for someone to go into a space where they don't know anything. They're very uncomfortable, everything is unfamiliar and yet everything is so new and exciting and there's something to be learned there. And so having that beginner's mindset, first and foremost, I think, is a way to help people get over that discomfort that, hey, you know what.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

You're not going to be the best dancer in the world when you set out on the floor this very first time, and that's okay. We're not expecting that, right, and you shouldn't be expecting that of yourself either. How can you expect to be perfect at this? You know, because that's what we all want to be right. We all want to be great and perfect at it when you've never done it before. That's not realistic.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

So, taking away some of those helping people, take away some of the expectations that they put on themselves and that pressure that they put on themselves, and just allow them to be in that space where they can discover and play and learn, just like when they were kids. No one expected you to be perfect at anything when you were a kid. You just got to be experiencing and living and being naturally curious about things and the whole world just opened up to you in that way because you didn't have any limits on yourself. So I see you know, dance in in a way as an opportunity for people to step into this different version of themselves that maybe they don't even know existed.

Jay Johnson:

I love that. So I I've been listening to Dr Paul Conti, who's famous psychologist, exceptional at what he does, and he talks about that. He's just, like you know, so often, so often we criticize ourselves. But if we were to think about it and, like you know, talking about it from the frame of shame and guilt and affect, et cetera, if we were to think about like that 12 year old version of us, or even that six year old version of us that's just starting to learn how to dance, are we going to be like you suck, you're terrible, you're awful, and you know.

Jay Johnson:

But we do that to ourselves as adults. We just we, we expect like oh my gosh, I'm shameful because how bad I am at this. But you know, give, giving a little grace, being a little kind, recognizing this is a big, beautiful world full of big beautiful experiences, and to get to those experiences, we just got to take that first step and maybe be a little kind to ourselves. So what I hear you saying, jennifer, is there's hope for me. You know a former hockey player, former mixed martial artist that also probably has a little bit of two left feet on a dance floor. There's hope for me, then.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

I think there is hope for everyone, and if you already know how to ice skate because you play hockey, you are going to be fine on the dance floor. Just pretend that you don't have the blades on your feet.

Jay Johnson:

So maybe I'll give it a shot. You know I really love this because I think it's so applicable in so many ways. So, you know, from our audience perspective, our ability to bring our authentic self in is something so important that we can really leverage our own personal, unique experiences to deliver some kind of knowledge or skill or something in a unique and sort of well, I guess authentic way. And getting people on board is probably very much the way that we got on board to it when we first started out in that space. So helping them navigate that internal voice, that shame, that guilt, that fear, might just be what gets them to actually take action from the training. So, jennifer, as we wrap up here, I want to ask you, you know, if you were to get, if you were to go back and give yourself, give your, your, your beginning trainer self, a piece of advice, what advice would that be?

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

advice would that be? Um, I would say that if I had to go back to that person, I was back. Then. I would say it's okay to not have all the answers and it's okay to tell people you don't know, but you'll find out. Or is there somebody in the room that could help me, because I don't know everything and maybe there's the collective wisdom here that can help us figure that out together. I think that's the advice I would give myself, because back then I was just my gosh. I'm up there in front of all these people. They're seeing me as the expert. I have to know everything, like and, and that was just so unrealistic and it placed so much pressure on me and it made it not fun in that way. You know, I was doing that because I love doing that, not because I felt like, oh, I have to know everything, and that was an immense amount of pressure on me. That was unrealistic. So I think that's the advice I would give myself. I think that's the advice.

Jay Johnson:

I would give myself. I think that's incredible advice. So thank you again for coming back to the Talent Force to finish this conversation, and I really think that this is such a powerful conversation for our audience and just all of the tips and tactics that you've been able to share, everything from that vulnerability to being that authentic self, so powerful. So thank you, jennifer.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Oh, thank you so much for having me, jay. I hope this was helpful for your audience, and it's just been a pleasure to talk with you. I really enjoyed our conversations.

Jay Johnson:

Now, if our audience wanted to get in touch with you, where might they be able to contact you?

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Yeah, so if they want to learn more, they can go to my website. That's drjennifernashcom. That's drjennifernashcom, and they can also find me over on LinkedIn.

Jay Johnson:

Awesome. Well, we'll make sure that that's in the show notes and again, thank you so much for being here with me.

Dr. Jennifer Nash:

Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate it and you know, for any organizations that might be listening, I do have a Leadership Through Ballroom Dance workshop, so if they're looking at something cutting edge for 2025, I am happy to talk about that with them.

Jay Johnson:

That's incredible. I'm going to be signing up for something here. Thank you, jennifer, and thank you, audience, for tuning into this episode of the Talent Forge, where, together, we are shaping the future of training and development.

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Jay Johnson, CEO and Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements

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