The Talent Forge: Shaping the Future of Training and Development with Jay Johnson

The Power of We: Building Connection in Corporate Culture with Kyle McDowell

• Jay Johnson • Season 1 • Episode 47

Share episode

Have you ever achieved success but felt empty inside? Kyle McDowell's journey from corporate executive to leadership visionary offers a roadmap for anyone feeling disconnected in their professional life.

After spending decades climbing the corporate ladder, managing 30,000 employees, and multi-billion dollar P&Ls, Kyle found himself in a state of profound apathy. The turning point came with a shocking realization: what he had perceived as respect from his team was actually fear. This revelation sparked a transformational journey that would not only reshape his career but his entire approach to life.

For anyone responsible for developing talent or building organizational culture, Kyle's experience offers a powerful lesson: meaningful change doesn't come from lofty mission statements that look good on office walls. It comes from establishing simple, actionable principles that guide behavior, foster connection, and become part of everyday language. When we create environments where people truly connect with one another, results naturally follow.

Ready to transform your approach to leadership and workplace culture? Explore Kyle's bestselling book "Begin With We" and discover how starting with connection might be the key to unlocking both professional excellence and personal fulfillment. Connect with Kyle: https://kylemcdowellinc.com/

Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com

Jay Johnson:

Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge, where we are shaping the future of training and development. Today we have a really special guest, kyle McDowell, and I want to say welcome to the show, kyle.

Kyle McDowell:

Jay man, it's great to be here. Thank you for having me.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, kyle. Okay. So, looking at your background, you have some amazing experiences in everything from your speaking to your corporate experience. I'd love for the audience to get to know you just a little bit. Tell me your story. How did you get into this kind of speaking, talent development, workforce development, space.

Kyle McDowell:

Well, it was never the plan, so I would venture to guess so often, so often.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, right, love it, yeah.

Kyle McDowell:

No surprise. Right, we're out of the gate with no surprises, man. So I began my career I think so no differently than probably every member of your audience and that is a lot of optimism. I brought a lot of energy and excitement. I was an eager beaver and I wanted to take on as much as possible and kind of grow and have an impact. I wanted to find fulfillment and have an impact and I wanted to do big things, and I still remember that very first cubicle I started at in a regional bank, and it's been about 30 years ago.

Kyle McDowell:

I plotted my path through corporate America, like many of us, and found myself in bigger and bigger roles and responsibilities. Know, ultimately, before exiting the corporate world in 2019 to write my book, I led collectively about 30,000 employees. In my last two roles, I had multi-billion dollar P&Ls for which I was responsible. But for me, I think that is kind of superficial stuff, because I think all of us set out to do. We want to do big things, we want to have an impact, we want to, we want to find fulfillment and, uh, I didn't have any of those things.

Kyle McDowell:

The first 20 or so years of my career. I had a lot of accomplishments, I checked a lot of boxes and, from the outside, looking in, appeared to be some guy who, who was, you know, reasonably successful and had achieved a lot of his goals, but what I felt inside was apathy. It was probably around year 22,. Maybe that I sensed so much apathy and this overwhelming question of is there a better way? That I had to look in the mirror. I had to do some really deep, deep self-reflection and that's what kind of fueled what I'm now calling the second chapter of my career, and I left corporate America in 2019 to write my book Begin With we.

Kyle McDowell:

It became a USA Today and Wall Street Journal bestseller, and you mentioned my speaking, so now that's most of my activity is in. My work is around speaking at large conferences or even organizations to help them kind of not make the same mistakes that I made, and use these principles that I created and that are the foundation for the book to help create what I coined as a culture of excellence, where there's a strong sense of we. We actually lean into each other, we take care of each other. We we actually give a about one another, and it's a lot more about relationships and connection than it is results, because if you have the former, the latter is going to come, and that's what I found.

Jay Johnson:

Oh, I'm loving this, Okay. So let me let me dig in and a couple of things here is. First of all, you got out of corporate when getting was good in 2019. It was almost. Maybe you had that predictive capacity of like maybe I should get out of here, but that's awesome. So here's my question.

Jay Johnson:

You know, as somebody with my behavioral science background, I study emotions a lot. Apathy is one of those emotions that I think a lot of people have a very difficult time grasping, and they may be, because when we feel apathy, it can lead to a number of things it can lead to us feeling anger, it can lead to us feeling frustrated, it can lead to burnout, it can lead to a number of things, but and it can also be the inverse of that that all of those can lead to apathy. So here's my question for you, Kyle what was it that sort of gave you an indication Like this is apathy, this is I'm not feeling fulfilled, I'm not, I don't care, and obviously that's not something that you wanted to be, but what was it that was the signal to you? That was like yeah, I'm in an apathetic state at the moment.

Kyle McDowell:

Yeah, man, where to begin? For me, there were a couple of things that I just couldn't avoid. The first was my marriage. My marriage was on the brink of a divorce that ultimately came to be, and certainly my work played a huge role in that downfall. I was on the road three, four nights a week for about a dozen years and my work became my identity and my work became my identity. I was the same, I carried the same being for lack of a maybe more scientific expression inside and outside of work, and everything I did was connected to my work always on call, always, and that was kind of the nature of the work that I did. I was an operations guy. We ran 24 hour operations around the globe, so you know, that kind of comes with the territory.

Kyle McDowell:

But when I realized the impact it was having on my personal life not just my marriage, my relationships with with other loved ones were, were all being compromised. My health was not good. I didn't, I didn't, wasn't in shape, I didn't, I didn't. There was always something wrong. And one day I used to train with this guy and he said man, I think stress is what's driving your illnesses, your aches, your pains. I think your back is largely related to your stress.

Kyle McDowell:

And I said man, you're nuts, you're crazy, and it turned out to be so. And I tell you, jay, what is the biggest gut punch of all is when you become apathetic about the very environments that you created. That's a wet blanket. That really was an eye opener for me. So I started to ask a lot of questions like is there a better way? Am I the only one that feels this way? And what iced it for me?

Kyle McDowell:

When you asked about the things that put me in that position, I think, ultimately, these questions forced me to ask my conf. You know the, the things that put me in that position. I think, ultimately, these questions forced me to ask my confidants, people that I really trusted, those that have been with me from multiple with at multiple organizations. I had surrounded myself by folks that I really trusted and and it turned out, what I thought was respect was actually fear. They feared me. And you know if you, if you, care at all about your brand and your reputation and how people think about you and what they say about you at the dinner table, cause, let's be honest, if you're in any, any type of position of authority, and oftentimes even not those that you work with they're talking about you at the dinner table. They're. They're telling their significant other what a jerk you were that day.

Kyle McDowell:

Yeah, my boss, oh gosh yeah yeah, and it occurred to me when I realized respect was not what I was feeling and it was more fear, and one person even told me that directly. That's when I started to play out kind of a legacy conversation with myself. It's like, dude, you've been doing this 20 something years. You've checked a lot of boxes. You've you've accomplished probably more than you've ever dreamt you would probably making more than you ever thought you would. Is this all there is? Is there, is there? Are you meant for more? Is there something else into fuel? And that's that. That's what it compelled me to leave corporate america. I was going to sit on the bench for a little while while I figured things out, uh, and work through my marriage which, as I mentioned, didn't work out, and I made a promise to myself, after all of these questions and answers, that if I were to go back into that fray, I would approach it very, very differently. I didn't know what that meant. I just knew needed, I needed a different recipe, because the recipe I had I knew in and out, backwards and forward, and it drove great results, but it also drove um the apathy. And it drove it lacked connection. I didn't really connect with people the way that I could have, or should have, didn't have the impact I could ever should have, and I just didn't want to end my career that way. So I stepped away, and it only lasted about 11 days.

Kyle McDowell:

I got a phone call asking would I be interested to take on a role that was in need of a bit of a cultural transformation, had about 15,000 employees, it was a $7 billion program and it was obvious to me very, very early on in the interview process that this was what you were asking for.

Kyle McDowell:

Are you really going to be that guy? Are you going to be the person that whines about it, or are you going to actually take what you've learned, hang on to some of those good aspects and find a different way to have a different set of outcomes that leave you connected and a legacy that you can be proud of. I love that. Yeah, man, I took the role and I guess the rest worked out because it was that organization, where I created these principles that have changed my life, that compelled me to write the book. They're still in practice at that organization. I've deployed them at multiple organizations since then. It's just, but I have to say all of that started with the apathy that drove the self-reflection that caused me to really test myself. Are you going to keep your head down and keep plugging along like you did the last 20 years, like so many of us do, or are you going to try to do something different? And I rolled those dice and it's worked out so far.

Jay Johnson:

I love it. So let me and I want to get into the connection, the culture and your approach. Before I go there, though I think it's important because and you said it and I think it's really important to highlight there's a lot of people that are probably feeling that apathy, that experience right now in their workplace. And for our audience who's, you know, in the HR, talent development, even management roles, you know they have to train them, they have to inspire them. They have to train them, they have to inspire them, they have to engage them, they have to motivate them. And you know we'll probably dig into this deeper as we get into the questions on connection or anything else. But I want you to go back. If you were you and thank you for sharing that story and your experiences vulnerably and openly, appreciate that a lot.

Jay Johnson:

If you were you back in that time and somebody was putting you into a training program and you were the audience in that training program, is there something that maybe would have landed for you? Is there something that somebody could have done that would have maybe snapped you out of it for a minute? Because when we're in that apathetic state or when we're in the you know, forget all this and this doesn't matter, and not feeling like in tune with ourselves. We tend to shut off learning. We tend to shut off, you know, we tend to be cynical about everything. Oh great, another training experience. There's a lot of people that are experiencing that right now and I know that there's a lot of trainers and coaches dealing with that in the audience. What might have aligned with you, what would have landed with you, what would have got your attention if you were to go back to that space and imagine yourself in the audience?

Kyle McDowell:

Jay, that is believe it or not. That's a question I think about a lot Because, if I'm being completely transparent and honest with you, if someone were to have handed me my book in my twenties, I wouldn't have read it. Yeah, just being honest, I wouldn't have read it. There's a lot of things.

Jay Johnson:

There's a lot of things that now Jay Johnson would look back at Jay Johnson and be like if you would only listen to this that's the rub.

Kyle McDowell:

That's the rub. That's the rub in my business today is, is, is, and I can't convince people. I can just share experiences and stories. But if I were able to convince people, it would be to convince them that there is a better way. There is a better way. I the reason why so? To answer your question directly. Is there something that would have resonated or kind of kind of snapped me into gear? The short answer is no. I'm not proud of that answer, but it's the truth. And it's no because I was a product of my environment. I led in a way that I saw others lead and that, in those days, was a very different approach to leadership. Today, I'm happy to say that.

Kyle McDowell:

But it there's this cycle that happens in almost every organization and I'll boil it down to the most simplest of scenarios. It's, let's just say, I'm on a team of 10 and my boss gets promoted, and now my boss is responsible for choosing their backfill. So I apply, I go through the interview process. There's something inherent inside of us that says I need to endear myself to this person making this hiring decision. Well, what's the best way to do that?

Kyle McDowell:

Well, I should behave similar to them. So I'm going to start to take on the same characteristics and leadership traits that I loathed in them, because I think it will endear me to them to get me this job. And if it works, what do you think I'm going to do next? The same bad behavior? I'm going to continue to. So that's what I did, and there were a couple of leaders I should call them bosses throughout my kind of growth and kind of coming up in the corporate world that I'm very grateful for having worked with, but I'm not grateful for the leadership style that they I don't want to say instilled, because that implies that I had no responsibility in it.

Kyle McDowell:

I had responsibility in it, clearly, but, um, I'm grateful for those opportunities and working with them, because it taught me how to get stuff done, but it didn't tell me. It didn't tell me or show me the way to get it done. That inspired people to want to do it, to continue to want to do it, to reach for more, to do better, to not settle. So that's, you know, the short answer is no, and the rub for me today, in my work today, is trying to get people to understand that the way that you see things today doesn't necessarily mean it's the way that it has to be forever.

Kyle McDowell:

It requires making a choice, it requires some self-reflection, it requires doing things that you may not have been comfortable doing historically and for me, I was not open to those things because, as I mentioned, I was quote unquote successful. I was, at every 18 months, 24 months, I would find myself in bigger and bigger roles. So why change that recipe? It's hard to refute that until the benefit of age and wisdom benefit of age and wisdom Um, I have a lot of age and a little bit of wisdom to say that there's a better way, and I've, you know, I I think, if we're going to work as much as we all work, it needs to be the most impactful work we can make and have.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, you know, when you're talking about that driver or that, that measure of success and the way that we end up measuring success in a lot of organizations is bottom line or promotion or quote unquote winning. And a lot of the work that I do is on our biological drives and while that satisfies our drive to acquire, it misses out on a lot of other things such as our drive to learn, our drive to bond and our drive to defend, and I think that's where we're going. Next is the drive to connect and bond with each other. So it seems to me and correct me if I'm speaking out of turn it seems to me that as you went through this stage of sort of navigating how you're feeling in this environment, how you're feeling about yourself, how you're feeling about your role and not feeling fulfilled it seems to me that it was almost a longing for deeper connection and or relationships with people. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Kyle McDowell:

First of all, the premise of the question is so enlightening to me because you essentially described me. I checked those boxes and was not able to connect those that you closed with the question. You know with the connection and you know how it makes me feel. By the way, you wouldn't catch me having a conversation about feelings.

Jay Johnson:

Sure.

Kyle McDowell:

The first dozen or two decades.

Jay Johnson:

Kyle, I'm a former junior hockey player and mixed martial artist, a competitive debater and excessively driven to win. I feel you and I've had to learn the other side to feel more connected.

Kyle McDowell:

Okay, so let me turn it back to you. Was that a conscious shift for you? Was there an epiphany? Was there a moment that you said this ain't it, I've got to. I need to find a different path.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, it really was, and I'm I'm I'm almost betting that we're very similar on this. For me, research was about me search. I was trying to figure out why do I keep finding myself in the same positions, making the same bad decisions, doing the same things, alienating people, and so on and so forth. So when I say I empathize, I authentically, in this case, recognize and see a lot of that, and that's why I really appreciate you being able to kind of communicate this, because this is something that I find to be really valuable. Uh, the turning point is one bad decision where it was just like what am I doing? Why do I keep doing?

Kyle McDowell:

this bad, how bad, how, jay what's that bad how?

Jay Johnson:

usually was yeah, usually it was the destruction of some kind of relationship, and not I don't mean like partners, I don't mean like a spousal or anything else like that, I mean like business relationship, friend relationship, colleague, coworker or whatever else. And it was just like and part of it was is my drive to win. It was win at the cost of pretty much anything. That really served me well when I was in hockey, it really served me well when I was in mixed martial arts, but it wasn't serving me well in my happiness or my gratitude for life or the relationships that I was building around me.

Kyle McDowell:

What do you think you missed out on as a result?

Jay Johnson:

You know it's interesting. I don't, I will say, and I want to. I want to pose that question to you too, because I find it to be a really interesting question. I believe that every single thing that I had gone through, every experience, has led me to kind of break through to where I'm at today, and I think that, absent those experiences, I might still be doing the same thing. So I don't want to.

Jay Johnson:

I don't particularly look at it as what did I miss out on? Uh, when I was in that position and when I started to make that decision to study behavioral science, it was what am I missing out on in the future? And it really was a future forward of how can I fix this in moving forward, I didn't really look back as much, don't get me wrong. I reflected on the patterns of behaviors, but it wasn't a question of, okay, I'm going to lament and regret and do all of these other things for a history that is lost. It was much more about hey, I'm a young enough person that I can figure this out. I feel like I'm smart enough, I feel like I've got enough energy to do so. What does my future look like? And that's really right. Do you feel like, from your perspective, do you feel like there was things that were missed, or is it, you know, was it something that was motivational behind that for you?

Kyle McDowell:

Clearly, for me, the thing missed was connection, and I don't mean to speak in nebular terms. Here's what I mean. On one hand, I can count the number of connections people that I would. I can pick up the phone right now and call and say, hey, I want to bounce an idea off you. On one hand, or less than one hand, I could count the number of people that would fit that category from the first 20 years of my career. The last decade, I still have one-on-ones with people I haven't worked with in five, six, seven years.

Jay Johnson:

That's awesome.

Kyle McDowell:

Right and I I think it illustrates the point of what I missed out on, and that is those connections that are not just means to an end, they're genuine bonds. I genuinely care about you and your success and how I might be able to help that, and in turn, I hope that you might have some nuggets of wisdom to drop on me occasionally, or at least tell me that I'm full of it, someone I can call and say, kyle, they'll break it down for me. So connection, I think, is the primary loss for me. Um, because you know, I'm still, I'm still able to deliver, um, I think, incredibly strong results. It's just, it's just how I get. There is a very, very different approach than than years past.

Jay Johnson:

Okay Now, and that makes sense, I think you know, from the connection side, I'm very fortunate that I have had people who have been with me from early on and continued on my journey. Um, partially because in my efforts to win I also do have sort of an undying and this is what I've had to more cultivate an undying loyalty to team, and I'm going to credit my hockey days for that. It's like nope, team first, I'll step back or whatever else, as long as we're winning. So I had that and I demonstrated that loyalty, but not without impact sometimes of like hey, I was a tyrant in some cases. You know I was a. Why are you not working 16 hours a day? I can work 16 hours a day, what the hell's wrong with you? And in sort of that, in sort of that experience, I found myself just being angry and frustrated and damaging some of that trust and things like that. But it was always one of those where they knew I had their back but I could still be a real asshole.

Kyle McDowell:

If that makes sense, yeah, absolutely, well said.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, let's talk about connection. Go ahead, go ahead.

Kyle McDowell:

Well, I'm just going to say the similarities and the way that you express you know your path, uh, that they are. There's a strong overlap there and I don't at all claim myself or proclaim to be any type of behavioral expert. The way that you are so hearing you describe it and the way you articulate it is very different than the way I would have, but it resonates in such a way that I see the overlap. It's really, I think it's really powerful, so I'm grateful.

Jay Johnson:

I'm grateful for you breaking it down that way, sincerely. I'm I'm grateful to have a friend that's experienced some of the things. It's amazing. So, all right, let's talk about connection, because you've created systems and obviously installed that when you had taken that role, you know, 11 days after you had left corporate to really kind of create connection, meaning and impact, and have even written a book about it, which I'm always impressed with any author. I've been writing a book for 10 years and I'm still on page whatever, but that's a journey for another story. But you took this sort of internal desire, maybe this lack, maybe this gap, and you turned it into something beautiful. That's helped, you know, organization shift. Let's talk about that. What in that hunt for connection? What did that look like for you?

Kyle McDowell:

For me it was a, it was a genuine epiphany. So I took the role and I allowed 30, maybe 60 days to elapse and, you know, I I was at least aware enough to know that I needed this team more than they needed me. For some context, the fellow that had the role before me, I think, was dismissed and believe the woman before him might've also been let go. So they had seen people come and go in this role and it's probably worth noting my direct reports. They had an average tenure of about 12 years, so they had forgotten more about their roles than I knew because I was new. But it was clear to me also that of my seven or eight I don't know six, seven, eight direct reports who managed really large functions hundreds, if not thousands, of people there was not, there was not a real sense of team, not that they didn't care about each other, but it was. If one group was winning and the other group was, another group was not quote, unquote winning. The winning side, the winning team did not wreck. Recognize that on the macro, we were not winning. If, if, if, a group inside of this team is not winning, then we're not winning as a group. So, yeah, right, exactly, um, so it was probably uh, 45, 60 days into the role.

Kyle McDowell:

I asked for the top 45 or 60 leaders of this 15,000 person organization to come together and it would be my chance to kind of share my expectations of the team. But I also wanted to be really clear. These would be their expectations of me, which is an approach that I had never considered. My ego wouldn't allow me to take that approach. So, jay, the night before I was to be on stage in front of this group of leaders, I was freaking terrified. I was in my hotel room. I had no idea what I was going to say. I just knew the recipe of old was not the recipe I wanted to bring to this organization, because I took the role understanding that I could lead in a different way and I was asked to lead a transformation.

Kyle McDowell:

So it was probably around midnight that night that I'd started. We had a dinner earlier in the evening and I was still wearing that day suit. I had my laptop open. I said I got to put some slides together and this epiphany that hit me was this is your chance. You're leading a massive organization If you want to have the impact that you brought, the desire to have an impact that you brought with you 30 years ago or 20 something years ago. Now's the time to have an impact that you brought with you 30 years ago or 20 something years ago. Now's the time. You've gotten the green light. You've been told this is in need, but how are you going to do it?

Kyle McDowell:

So then I just started to replay both really positive scenarios, but also those scenarios that left me feeling less than whole feeling, as if I was just kind of a means to an end or I was a transaction for my boss. Boss is, and I'm not a super creative person, so I just started typing in. An hour or two elapsed and I'm staring at my laptop with 10 sentences, that's it, and each of them uh at the time, and still do begin with the word we, and these were going to be. I called them our, our, our guiding principles. I didn't, I didn't have 10 sentences that began with we, so I called them the 10 we's. These are our guiding principles.

Kyle McDowell:

I didn't even know what the definition of a principle technically was, but I shared them with the team the next morning and I opened up with I don't care what our clients think, I don't care about anything other than what's happening behind this curtain, because it was obvious to me that this organization does a really fine job of of orienting the new hire into the fold right. Here's your job, here's what you do here, the X's and O's, the SOPs like here's, here's. You know, this goes before that very, very um, I thought sophisticated on the training and learning side of things, but there was not guidelines or expectations, very clear expectations set for behavior, how we treat one another behind the curtain. And I was convinced that if we could be high functioning behind the curtain and really, really be a team, lean into this concept of we which hit me the night before, the results would come, but we would do it in a way that recognizes each other's contributions, we would care for one another and we would collectively win, not just individual silos. And it worked. I shared the 10 wheeze the next morning and fast forward a handful of years later. Those principles they've made their way into that company's performance evaluations. They had the 10 wheeze awards, they created all kinds of swag. I still wear my 10 wheeze bracelet from many, many, many, many years ago.

Kyle McDowell:

Um, and what ha? And I think the reason why it took off so quickly there is. There was a recognition that we know our business, we're really good at the fundamentals of our business, but no one's ever said, hey, we're going to pick each other up, we're going to own our mistakes, we're going to say what we're going to do and then we do it. These 10 principles. No one has ever been that explicit. We've got these values on a wall that no one can recite, but no one has been explicit enough to say, first of all hey, boss, this is how we're going to hold you accountable. And I remember like it was yesterday. I literally said if you guys see me behaving contrary to any one of these principles, I want you to grab me by the ear and say dude, you're being a hypocrite. I said it just like that. Some did, some didn't. But that was the beginning of a very different leadership approach for me and, by the way, parenthetically.

Kyle McDowell:

Five years later there were members of that team that reached out to me. I was with another firm already that reached out to say when's your book coming? And I said I'm not writing a book. What are you talking about? I'm not an author. He said okay, you're the guy that said this is who you are. You changed this $7 billion program. Do you have something more in you? Is there more for you? They thought that they thought I had more in me, and it was that reason why I started to write the book, because other people had changed their existence in terms of their ability to be a good teammate, a good leader. But then I started to hear stories about how it was changing, how they behave outside of work, and I thought this is, this is where I have to go, and now it's my purpose to continue to evangelize these principles the 10 wheeze.

Jay Johnson:

We're going to get into that. But I want to go back to something that you said and thank you for sharing that. What I'm looking at here is I'm imagining Kyle sitting in the hotel room in the day before his business suit and you're sitting there and you're looking at blank page syndrome. You're trying to hack out what it is that you're going to talk about, and I got to imagine that some level, some level of temptation, starts to creep back in, because you're recently fresh off of your other you know 11 days or whatever it was from your previous and on some level there had to be the temptation of well, this worked really well for me 30 years ago.

Jay Johnson:

How did you temper that temptation? Because a lot's on the line, lot at stake, and one of the things that human beings tend to do when there is a high risk calculation or anything else is go back to whatever they've survived on before. I mean, that's a natural part of the way our brain is constructed. So you had to feel a little bit of that temptation. What was the tipping point? To say no, I'm not going to go back into that pattern of behavior.

Kyle McDowell:

Love this question. The tension or the potential of sliding back into that approach didn't happen immediately. I would say half the room was really excited and optimistic. I would say a quarter was kind of cautiously optimistic. There was a quarter-ish that were obstinate. They're just like this guy's, full of it. It's never going to work.

Jay Johnson:

This is BS. This is all emotions, this is all the things.

Kyle McDowell:

One guy accused me of plagiarizing. He asked for my presentation because he wanted to check the file properties to see if I created the PowerPoint. I'm great buddies since then. But yeah, he admitted to that. The, the, the, the. I was tempted to backslide and I think it's probably a fair way of describing it. It when my adoption of my own principles was tested and there was a scenario that I remember like it was yesterday. So one of the principles we number eight is we challenge each other. The following principle is we embrace challenge. My temptation to use my business card instead of the principles that I had documented and subscribed to and and was evangelizing, came when I was challenged um a woman on the team, um brilliant woman, when you say use your business card.

Jay Johnson:

I'm assuming and presuming that it's like no, I'm the boss now, just get your your ass, because I said so. Right, yeah, right. Because I said so Just wanted to make sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle McDowell:

Yeah, because I said so. This is not a democracy. I'm the leader and this is the decision I'm making, which is not, you know, I wouldn't say two 300 people, ish and um, she was responsible for all of our contract work, which is a really big role. She was, she's, a brilliant woman. Um, I was still learning. I said, hey, um, julia, she knows I tell this story. Hey, julia, can you send me the X, y, z workbook Because I want to dig into some of the Excel workbooks.

Kyle McDowell:

I want to dig into some of the formulas because I'm a data nerd. If I can dive in and see how this affects that, I would be smarter for my little bit of homework. And Julia sent me a screenshot. Well, if you ever use Excel, you know a screenshot is not super helpful because you can't follow references, you don't know how things are calculated. So I said, julia, maybe it was a mistake. Julia, can you just send me the workbook please? I need the whole workbook. I want to check references, different tabs and so on. She sends me a workbook now but it only has one tab in. It Didn't have the other tabs that were referencing data elsewhere.

Kyle McDowell:

And this is the point that I've so vividly recall saying all right, dude, your principles are one thing, the standards that you've established are one thing, but now you've got someone who's, for whatever reason, and I think this moment, this scenario, had such an outsized impact on my and unexpected impact on my ability for these principles to take hold. Because, as you know, I was being watched and am I the guy evangelizing these principles and kind of preaching them but not living them, creating this leadership gap which I have seen all too many times, We've all seen all too many times, and I'm just one of those guys at this point. Or am I gonna take my own medicine? For whatever reason, I took my own medicine and I just continued to kind of coddle in some ways. Julia, please, this is what I need. I didn't react the way I wanted to. I think it's worth sharing. She, please, this is what I need. Didn't react the way I wanted to. I think it's worth sharing. She is one of those people that I still have regular one-on-ones with, multiple years later, although at the time and she'll say this out loud we did not see eye to eye, we didn't, we didn't like each other, but now she's one of my closest confidants that I just cherish that relationship.

Kyle McDowell:

But that was the, that was the sentinel moment. I realized you can't just talk about it. As a matter of fact, nobody cares what you say. They're watching you, they care how you act, they'll follow your behavior, not what you say. And that was a. That was a real pivotal moment in my journey, cause I used to lead with ego and now I was leading with a more kind of empathetic approach. Why was she challenging me in the way that she was? Why was she being difficult? Well, because she had been burned by people in my position previously. I came to find so. So that was the biggest moment for me, and there are certainly other instances, probably less impactful, that I learned to. To respond rather than react is probably the best way I would describe it.

Jay Johnson:

I love how you framed that, because we've and every single human being goes through this process of where we have a thought, we have a feeling and we have a choice to make, and that's literally from a behavioral. That's why I studied behavior and not something else was my core philosophy is our behavior is the only choice that we have. You're going to have feelings, You're going to have thoughts, more than likely. In that moment, Julia was obstinate and there was that sort of thought process of like why is this person doing this?

Jay Johnson:

or you know, and all of those other feelings that come with it frustration, anger, et cetera. But you made a choice and it's in those choices that drives our success and failure. And I love that the 10 wheeze are the sort of guiding North Star light to how you're making choices. So I don't want to pay lip service to them, but I know that we don't have that much time to maybe go through all of them, so I'm going to encourage our audience to buy your book. Take a look at it, but let's talk about it. So this connection piece, this starting with we not even necessarily with why, but starting with we we're all in this together. What is you know? As you navigated these principles? What are some of the things that you started to see in terms of outcomes when people said, hey, we got to this, we space. What did you see in that organizational shift?

Kyle McDowell:

Yeah, so the first thing. So I have to admit, the first several months after introducing them, there was a fair amount of fear that I was being pandered to. Like you know, the more senior you are, the funnier your jokes somehow are, the more time people want to spend, right? That's just how it works. So I was a little concerned. There was some brown nosing frankly going on, so I didn't push them and I told the team. I said I don't care if these 10 become 11 or become 8 or 7, but this is what you can expect from me. I hope you follow along with me and we all adopt these principles. This is the standard that I'm gonna hold myself accountable to and I'm going to. I'm going to hold you similarly, but you don't have to subscribe to them. Just know that these are the things. These are our standards. Um, I would. I started to see signage pop up. So we had lots of locations around the country. I started to see signage that was, again, not quite convinced it wasn't pandering to the new guy but where it really became palpable and profound and I'll use the same example of we number eight.

Kyle McDowell:

We challenge each other is staff meetings, which are historically in most organizations, most environments, they're readouts. The boss is at the end of the table. We go around the table people giving their KPI updates or whatever's going on in their world, we break, we move on. Well, when you say that challenge is not an option, it's an obligation, but it has to be done diplomatically and it needs to have an element of data or experience. That's the rule. It's not your opinion. My staff meeting started to turn into conversations where Lori would be on one end of the table and she would go through her readout. Julia would hear something that didn't quite pass her sniff test because she's been with the organization a long time, she knows people, that knows people and that know people and she's she knows this business. So now she's obligated to say well, hang on a second. Lori, in a meeting yesterday, so-and-so, said this or you picked the scenario. But my point is is we have conversations now. It's not just readouts and what I would do occasionally. So in an organization this size, you have to pick your battles, you have to pick where you spend your time and hopefully you pick the right paths, the right avenues.

Kyle McDowell:

But there were times, admittedly, I would dial in to a call. This is way before COVID. So video wasn't as prominent, it's almost all voice. You know teleconference Um, I would dial in and not announce myself.

Kyle McDowell:

And what was so heartwarming and really profound and that's when I knew the brown nosing was less of a thing and it was more authentic was I would hear people say, well, listen, hey, we challenge each other, right. And then they would bring up a contrary point and and someone would say, well, yeah, well, we embrace challenge. Or hey, we do the right thing. So before we land on an answer or a solution here, the problem we're trying to solve, let's not forget we do the right thing, right, guys. So I would hear it played back in vernacular and it became part of our DNA man, and it was something that you couldn't go more than probably 20 minutes in any meeting without someone interjecting one of the principles as kind of our true North Star this is how we're going to behave, because we've all subscribed to that. So for me, seeing it was one thing, but hearing it, especially when I wasn't in the room technically, was probably the most impactful moment where I realized something bigger than me is happening here and we got to embrace this.

Jay Johnson:

Well, and I think one of the things that it seems to me and again without having been there, but it seems to me one of the things that you did was you normalized a language around a value system and a structured value system, that North Star, because I think that's where a lot of organizations fail in developing their cultures.

Jay Johnson:

They have these high level values purpose meaning that literally does not translate into a short slogan of we embrace challenge that I can remember. I can't remember what it is. If it's just like we organize ourselves so that way, we bring innovation at every turn and do this in order to facilitate the best customer relation who gives us.

Jay Johnson:

We embrace it right so it sounds to me like you really developed a language that was around you you you had mentioned. It became a part of the vernacular. But when we do that, that's really what cements it. If I can communicate it, then it's real. If I can't explain it, what does that mean?

Kyle McDowell:

Man, again you. You have described my work in a way better than I do. You're right, I've never looked at it as normalizing dialogue or normalizing our communication, but that's exactly what happened and your connection to so. I worked for a company that I'll leave the name of the company out. The mission statement was helping consumers on their paths to better health Beautiful. No one's going to disagree that I want to be a part of that. Clean, perfect, right. Except it doesn't compel me to work a bit harder. It doesn't compel me to work any more collaboratively. It doesn't compel me to focus on outcomes over activity.

Kyle McDowell:

That's what the principles do. They enable those lofty statements, most of which people cannot even recite. They enable them in a way that is actionable and it's a currency, almost. It's a currency that, no matter if you're the newest intern or the most tenured leader on the program, you have the ability not just the ability. You're obligated to spend that currency. And your observation is spot on. It created normal words and phrases and dialogue that you wouldn't have heard otherwise, because we made the choice to use them as part of our being, of who we are.

Jay Johnson:

That was kind of you to say. It's something that I've believed for a long time and we see it backed up by science. If it's easy, people will do it. If it's hard, they're going to try to find an easier pathway. You made a very complex concept of values and identity inside of an organization, of values and identity inside of an organization super easy, manageable and something that everybody can say, hey, yeah, you know, if we all buy into this 10 wheeze, that's going to create an environment that I'd like to work in.

Kyle McDowell:

Yep, yep, yep. But, jay, can I challenge something you just said? Man, sure, I would love to swap out your use of the word easy for simple.

Jay Johnson:

Sure, I'll accept that.

Kyle McDowell:

Because I think I'm the first to admit the principles are incredibly simple, but they're not easy because of the conversation we just had. Right, when things are good, man, it's easy to say, yeah, we do the right thing. We challenge each other. That's easy when things are tough To live it is a different question, they're still simple.

Jay Johnson:

Yep.

Kyle McDowell:

But it's not easy. So that's you know. That's the only thing I would say. I would not disagree, but just maybe amend, if you're okay with it 100%.

Jay Johnson:

I think that's a great amendment and probably more in line with what I meant than what I said. So thank you for that. Yeah, so, kyle, in the event that, in the event that let's kind of fast forward and just for a time sake here and I would love to have you back, cause I think that there's a number of things that I'd love to go deeper in Likewise Fast forward. We've implemented this and I want to go back to the origin story. We've implemented this. You said, eventually, you had moved on to a different firm, etc. How were you feeling? Because there had to be some level of that gap that you experienced when you were in the corporate side of things to where, all of a sudden, you've made this transition, you've started to see things differently and now you've emerged from the other side of the hero's journey, the story, the whatever else You've come out, changed. How did that feel for you?

Kyle McDowell:

Changed my life, Jay.

Kyle McDowell:

Changed my life. It started as a change, exclusively in my work world, exclusively in my work world. But then I realized so it's one thing to say that these are the standards that you hold yourself accountable to in the workplace and it's another thing to say and if I don't live these in front of you guys or you see me behaving contrary to them, call me a hypocrite. But I wasn't. For many years I was not carrying those same standards and principles to my personal life. And there was an epiphany moment there as well, where I realized okay, you're not being a hypocrite in the workplace, but a hypocrite is still a hypocrite. So if you're not committed to doing the right thing and it's a silly example, but I caught myself leaving the shopping cart in the parking spot next to me instead of returning it to the little corral thing or back to the grocery store. I'm pulling away and I see my grocery cart in the rear view. It's like a movie. I'm pulling away and I can see the grocery cart slowly rolling backwards and I go, you hypocrite. So I whipped my truck into a parking spot and took it back and I've never left a grocery cart not where it belongs ever since then and took it back and I've never left a grocery cart not where it belongs ever since then. But the change, my life part, comes when I realize when we set our, when we set a series of standards, I don't care if it's one. Ideally it's more than that. But as a human being, when we set our, when we set a series of standards that we're going to hold ourselves accountable to, we're going to, we'll stumble, we won't get it right all the time, but how do you ever, how do you achieve, how do you reach goals? How, how are you exceptional in anything without establishing the standards of your behavior that are required to achieve that excellence? It's almost, it's. It's almost nonsensical to me, but I never looked at it that way. My work Kyle and the out of work Kyle were two different beings. I just happened to spend a lot more time on the work side, so it was a predominant character that you would meet. But I am just so vehemently convinced now that the more authentic we are in the workplace in other words, we're not that different from inside to outside of work I get it, there are, you know, there are decorum things and we can't, you know foul language and things but the more authentic I can be inside, outside of work and everywhere in between, the more trustworthy I am and the more naturally and loyally followership will arrive. So it changed my life. And there was one final moment and then I'll just shut up and listen is I gave a talk at Audi.

Kyle McDowell:

It's been well over a year now. We're at the Q&A portion of the talk and this is what really hit home and was the final kind of straw for me to say this is who you are, not just a work thing. Q&a at the end, fella stands up, raises his hand, stands up, big, big former division one football player, bald head, mr, clean looking guy, really intimidating guy. I'm like, oh shit, where's he going? He?

Jay Johnson:

thinks I'm full of it.

Kyle McDowell:

He says in front of a group of like 70 executives at Audi, he says this book changed my life. Love hearing that he said, but maybe not for the reasons. You think these principles have changed how I'm raising my children, dude, I teared up. I teared up in front of 70 strangers. Um, there was a stool behind the podium at which I delivered part of my speech. I just sat back on the stool and I said I got nothing. You guys, I'm. I think my work here is done and that was a really powerful, important moment to me because it realized we set our own ceilings as well, and I was. I set out on this mission to change the workplace and it's now created this momentum that I'm seeing and hearing from readers that it's having similar impacts in their personal lives, which is just fuel to me, man, it keeps me going. And when I say it changed my life, I'm not. There's no hyperbole there.

Jay Johnson:

It absolutely has changed my life or work-life integration. There is no two Kyles, there is no two Js. You are a human being and you operate in different environments and contexts and, to try to put on, yes, there's behaviors or social expectations in different places, but you're not a different person walking into those spaces.

Kyle McDowell:

Jay, why do we have two different vocabularies? Unless you go home at the end of a long day and say hey, honey, how'd you do on your deliverables today? I think we could probably get into the science of code switching and the purpose behind it, but we might be in a long conversation. Our next gap you and I will do this again, hopefully.

Jay Johnson:

Well, I would love to do this again and actually dig into the 10 wheeze, because I think this is a really powerful conversation and really insightful. You know, if you're that trainer, if you're that coach and you're sitting there and you're wondering, hey, why are things not necessarily easy for me in this L&D space right now or in this talent management space, really be thinking about that question of connection and I think that, kyle, you just did such an incredible job setting that standard of a North Star, if we need to be connected before we're actually going to be fulfilled, happy, or whether or not that check mark of acquisition is going to actually have meaning in our lives. So I want to say thank you for that.

Kyle McDowell:

It's my pleasure, thank you.

Jay Johnson:

Kyle, if our audience wanted to get in touch with you, how would they reach out to you?

Kyle McDowell:

So I'm on essentially every social media platform with the handle at Kyle McDowell Inc. My website is kylemcdowellinccom as well. The book is Begin With we. It's available wherever books are sold. It seems like Amazon's probably the easiest place to get it. But listen, man, anytime I get an opportunity to share these experiences and I never want to come across that it's about me, because it's not these principles have taken on a life of their own, and I'm just a steward kind of kind of helping spread that word, and meeting folks like you and having conversations like this is the perfect way to do it, so I'm eternally grateful, thank you.

Jay Johnson:

We're grateful for having you on the show and thank you, kyle. I look forward to our future conversations and likewise, thank you, audience, for tuning into this episode of the talent forge, where we are shaping the future of training and development.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Jay Johnson, CEO and Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements

Host