The Talent Forge: Shaping Workforce Behaviors with Jay Johnson

Press Start to Learn: Gaming's Secret Sauce for Training Success with with Dr. Natalie Makulski

• Jay Johnson • Season 1 • Episode 60

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What if the secret to creating training that people actually want to complete has nothing to do with points, badges, or leaderboards? In this eye-opening episode of The Talent Forge, Dr. Natalie Makulski of Coeus Creative Group reveals how her deeply personal journey into gamification—which began with helping her grandmothers combat Alzheimer's and dementia—transformed her understanding of what truly drives engagement in learning.

Rather than focusing on the superficial elements of games, she delves into the psychological underpinnings that keep us coming back for more. Her research on Magic: The Gathering players uncovered a surprising truth: the most powerful element of gaming isn't competition or rewards—it's belonging.

This insight completely transforms how we should approach training design. Dr. Makulski challenges conventional wisdom by suggesting that competition between learners can actually undermine learning by creating subtle divisions. Instead, she advocates for collective challenges where learners work together against a common obstacle, fostering a shared identity that extends beyond the training event.

Whether you're a seasoned L&D professional or just starting out, this episode will forever change how you think about engagement in learning environments. Subscribe to The Talent Forge for more conversations that challenge conventional wisdom and provide actionable strategies to future-proof your training programs.

Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com

Jay Johnson:

Welcome to the Talent Forge shaping the future of training and development with Jay Johnson. Welcome to this show where we're going to help you ignite the potential within your workforce. The Talent Forge isn't your typical training tips and tactics podcast. We delve deeper, exploring the future of L&D and how to design programs that truly transform your people. Each episode, we tackle some of the most pressing questions facing talent development professionals how can we build engaging learning experiences that drive results? How can we leverage technology to personalize development journeys and, most importantly, how can we empower our people to reach their full potential? We'll be sitting down with industry thought leaders, dissecting real-world case studies and sharing actionable strategies to future-proof your training programs. Whether you're a seasoned L&D professional or just starting out, the Talent Forge is your one-stop shop to shape a thriving learning culture within your organization. Let's fire it up and step into the Talent Forge. Today, I'm joined by Dr Natalie Makulski of Coeus Creative Group, an instructional technology specialist who inspires learning through gamification and technology. Welcome to the show, natalie.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

Thank you.

Jay Johnson:

So, Natalie, you are someone who integrates games into the learning experience. Can you tell me a little bit about your journey and path that got you there?

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

the learning experience. Can you tell me a little bit about your journey and path that got you there? Sure, so games actually found me when I was going through my master's program. I got into gaming because both my grandmas have Alzheimer's and dementia and I read an article that gaming can help slow down the progression of Alzheimer's and dementia. And you know they're my grandparents. I'm going to do whatever I can to help them. So that's how I first started getting into gaming and then it evolved from there, because I was teaching at the time and I thought, wow, some of these cognitive behaviors that I can use with my grandparents I can also bring into my third grade classroom. So my third graders were my test bunnies for a while.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

Um, and the different gaming elements that we brought in, I don't. When we think of gaming, people think of the guts and the glory. They think of Grand Theft Auto. They think of you know Mario. They think of their nostalgic game. When I think of gaming, I think of well, why are you playing that? What's making you play that? Why are you motivated to play that? We don't get money from games. Well, terminally you do, but not very much.

Jay Johnson:

I was going to say there's some YouTubers out there that are making some money, but that's few and far between.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

Yes, yes, like why and how the average Joe. Why do they play it? Why do children play it? Why are we? Why do they have video game addiction? So I look at the kind of the subconscious elements of gaming, more so versus points, avatar and the customization of game.

Jay Johnson:

Well, I find it really interesting, natalie, because we do have a little bit of a shared experience here. My father is actually in the late stages of Alzheimer's and dementia and you know it is one of those things that I have seen him really react in a positive way to games and to being able to sort of engage in some of the fun exercises or experiences that he had in the past. Can you tell me, would you mind sharing, if you're open to it, a little bit about how did that play out when you were in, you know, incorporating games into, say, your grandparents' daily lives? What was the results and the impact of that?

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

Sure. So my grandma that passed away. She had Alzheimer's so I volunteer at the Alzheimer's Association and I never knew that Alzheimer's was the part of dementia. So dementia is the big umbrella and Alzheimer's is a part of it. My grandma with Alzheimer's.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

When we used to play games together I really thought it helped connect her to her childhood. We played games that were a lot of motor activity because she wasn't moving around as much. So we play games like catch and we play. We used to, we used to play. So I speak Polish too. So we used to play Polish games where we would count in Polish and you know we pass it and we say like you know that'll um. So we play those games, helping remind how to count but also translating them into English. So she really liked that, to rebuild those memories with them.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

My other grandma has dementia and you know I see that when she plays she seems a little bit more stronger. I see that it also connects to her childhood. We have this Shrek game that you can pull the little people apart and she plays with Shrek and tells me about dolls when she was a child. So I see a lot of benefits of them bringing up their memories and I see them being able to repeat the games again without much direction of how to play them. So those are positive gains that I see when weeks we don't play those with them. I do have a book where I time them to see how long it takes them to play a game, and I'm really happy to see that my current grandma's alive still it has to mention that her timing really hasn't't changed that we are on a good path where in the beginning it would take us, you know, five minutes to play shrek's memory game. Now we're at a consistent three minutes, so that's good. I'm glad we're not having a deficit with that at all yeah, it's so fascinating.

Jay Johnson:

When we originally took my dad in to have some of the cognitive testing done, there was a series of different memory games and that was probably the first time that I really got a good indication that, okay, we're definitely progressing down this pathway.

Jay Johnson:

And to hear, and having witnessed personally how quickly some of the different things can like just shift in that life, to hear that you've been able to kind of stabilize that through gaming, that's just incredible.

Jay Johnson:

And you know, I want to dig into a moment about your motivation to get into this space, because I think that's so important for talent development professionals. When we think about the motive of why we get into a certain area or why we specialize or what it is, it's often very personal and it's something that can really inspire us to go to that next level. So let's link this back into the training and talent development world. Natalie, when you think about games, now I do know and I look this up your dissertation was about how do we learn to play games and exploration of novice players' supports and motivations when learning Magic the Gathering so a very popular game, and I know you're a little surprised that I probably researched that out and found it. But with that being said, you know that's obviously something that that motivation, that inspiration. Can you talk a little bit about that and how that shows up for learners in a talent development environment?

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

Sure. So, yeah, I am shocked that you looked that up, because I literally squeaked that right in before COVID happened, like two days, but anyway, yeah. So, motivation, why was I doing that? Click the button, move on.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

And how do we know if people are comprehending or learning?

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

And how can we make learning which helps us evolve as humans? I think, how can we make that better? So, as, also being inspired by that, you know, I wanted to look at, well, how can I make trainings better? And I got into a higher ed position and I was doing trainings and I thought, yeah, I can just do a whole bunch of trainings where I talk, or I can do a whole bunch of click the button trainings, but that's boring. How can I make this better? But I'm not going to throw a whole bunch of points at you. That doesn't work, that doesn't have longevity. So what do we do?

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

And you know, looking at my theories, mine are really heavily embedded in self-determination theory, victor Verroom's expectancy theory, and then community's practice theory with Wegg and Wagner. I really looked at those and from my observation of, well, how do these novice people stay so engaged? You know, we get training modules that work and we want to be done with them faster than going to the dentist? How do I make them come back, like when they come to hobby shops and play? How do I get that in there? Why are they coming back?

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

So, for my study, I learned the biggest thing was belonging. People want to belong and you know, the funniest thing that I learned in my time as a researcher was people don't just have to belong with people, people belong with games. And looking at Magic the Gathering, it's a card game, right? And I watch so many people personify the cards and you see their favorite cards. They don't play them, they put them off to the side because they love that, right. So it's so interesting and connecting it to learning and talent development.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

Well, how do I make you love, belong to a module to take training? Why can't I just give you, you know, a sparkly bell and pre-level up? Why don't you come back? Well, because that's not strong enough for adults. That's fun for little kids for a little bit, but that's not strong enough. So when I design learning training modules, I always think of that. How do we bring that belonging in there? What if I can't bring another person? How do I bring that power that I see in magic cards or Pokemon cards to a training. What do they do? So? That's when I incorporate more belonging elements, such as different styles, such as different expectancies. What do they expect to get out of this? What are they wanting to do? Different valiance, so I bring those in there to help connect them to the training modules.

Jay Johnson:

I want to unpack a couple of things that you said there. I find it so fascinating. First of all is that concept of immersion. You know, when we are immersed into something it really does make the time go faster, it makes the learning easier, it makes it more sticky. And getting that concept into trainings is something I think is often missing. You know PowerPoints and you know handouts don't necessarily make that person really feel immersed in the learning experience, but through games it seems like we can do that.

Jay Johnson:

And you know, when I think about a lot of buzz right now is about the attention account People don't have attention enough to. You know, maybe, quite frankly, there's a book Reality is Broken, and I'm forgetting the author right now but she basically says well, maybe if the real world was as exciting as the game world, people would actually pay attention to it. So I think about that and I go all right. So it's really not about attention, it's really not about experience. It's much more about activating sort of that need for play, that interest, that belonging, as you say.

Jay Johnson:

And when I've looked at different game theories I've seen different things, like the high achievers, the people that want to get the best scores and everything else. I've seen things about the, you know the social people that really are just coming on. Can you talk a little bit more about sort of that drive or that motivation towards social gaming, because I think that plays a huge part in our learning. We never really actually learn alone. It's usually trying to learn with other people or we bring our learnings to other people. So can you maybe focus in a little bit on that motivation of social learning as it applies to that game theory?

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

Yeah. So a great book that I love is called Minds on Fire by Mark Crane, and it talks about reacting to the past. It's a game that they play at Central Michigan in a course, and it is all about immersion theory. If you ever watch a football player, right, how do they transition from a civilian, as they call themselves, to a football player? What do they do? They have the gear. Gear, they put the helmet on. It's when we change and that's what you know.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

When we, when we go into these learning environments, you know we kind of need to be immersed ourselves into knowing that it's time to be the learner, the player, whatever. And then when we look at community of practice, we learn from other people. It's better to be in groups, clubs, organizations, whatever, with so many different people of different backgrounds, age, ethnicities, value, because they have such a rich culture and information that you don't know. That helps you grow and you can apply it to a gamer or a game or a learning situation. You can apply it to a gamer or a game or a learning situation. So, definitely, having that belonging with your group and community, you know, I think working here at COIUS the great thing is the first day I got hired, you guys gave me one of those awesome sweet sweater zip ups that I love and right away it was like I'm a team, like I felt like I'm on a football team, I'm ready to participate, I'm ready to learn.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

And what I love also about COIUS is everybody at our work environment is so different. We are not the same and because of it and having even the guide too, because of it I feel that I've grown more in my job than I ever have in a career. And that's why it's so important to have these communities of practice because you're learning from other people, you're hearing their failures, you're hearing their success. You do very well. Every time we meet up, what's our win? We take those wins and we can apply them subconsciously to ourselves and grow as well. And, as I said, with everything here at COE, the great thing is immersion is so predominant. We are such a group kind of like the Taylor Swift bracelets that we have that belonging element with the same clothes sometimes and the same merchandise. That helps us understand and learn and grow from each other. And that's what we need in a learning, training, development as to how do we belong, how do we learn, how do we grow from each other.

Jay Johnson:

You know, I find it interesting that concept of learning, each learning from each other through games as well. I'm kind of recalling one of my younger nephews who doesn't necessarily play the games but literally watches other people play the games on YouTube, and that was such a fascinating thing to me. I said, why are you interested in this? And they're like, oh well, I'm learning how to play. I'm like, well, how much time do you actually spend watching somebody else play versus playing yourself? And they were like, ah, it's probably I watch about 60% and you know 40% actual playing. I found that absolutely fascinating when I was younger give me the controller. I want the controller in my hand, I want to be able to, you know, engage in play. But I loved having you know that second controller, somebody next to me playing that game alongside of me, and maybe they did something that I learned from. But you know, as you, as you kind of bring this back, I do think about that culture that was built, even if it was hey, me and my friends have a favorite game that we all play together and then we talk about it. So, even if it wasn't necessarily done together, we were still learning or sharing experiences of the game, uh, in a very, you know, sort of bonded way. So that's such a neat, a neat example.

Jay Johnson:

Let me switch gears here for just a moment. Natalie, I want to go into. You know, when you were talking about designing with some of these different aspects in mind, right? So you have that background in instructional design I want to talk about what are some ways that our talent development audience, whether they're coaches, whether they're trainers, whether they are practitioners in any field, what are some ways that they can easily? Because we know that the easier it is to incorporate new learnings, the faster that people adopt it. So what are some ways or techniques that you would suggest? Maybe people dabble in this concept of including games into their offerings. What are some different tips maybe that you would be able to offer our audience to elevate their trainings with some of that game theory in the background? Absolutely.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

You know, when I first got into gaming, I thought I had to be all sparkly and glittery. I had to be exactly like you know. Grand Theft Auto was very popular. When I first got into gaming, I thought I had to be all sparkly and glittery. I had to be exactly like you know. Grand Theft Auto was very popular. When I got into gaming, I had to design a Grand Theft Auto game. That's the only way you can get people to game right? No, that's a total lie. You don't need the top technology. You don't need to make this eccentric video game. It can be as simple as changing a word. There is so much power in saying we are leveling it up when that means you're changing the book page. That is more powerful than Grand Theft Auto video game.

Jay Johnson:

You know, to kind of dig into that, like even thinking our ancient, ancient ancestors played with bones and played with you know anything else. It was something that really activated sort of that sense of winning or that sense of accomplishment, solving a problem. So are you saying that I don't need to go back and get a degree in, you know, video game design in order to really make this effective in my training or talent development experiences?

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

Yes, 1000%. I think they're great. That, if that's what you want to do, I think they're great. But I think, just being an average Joe getting into this, I think the most powerful thing that you will ever incorporate into a training, whether it's in person or online, is just starting with the basics. Just like I said, changing a word to level up, bringing that immersion in. If you're going to do a training, you know maybe you know, go with the Taylor Swift idea. Give them a bracelet, show that this is a community, so that way, when other people are playing, you know that somebody, somewhere rather, you met them, picture, picture face to face, whatever has that same bracelet and that your team and you're working together. Look how powerful it is for Taylor Swift. You know they create an earthquake. The other deck. This is exactly what we want to bring in.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

Gaming is not throw a whole bunch of points at them. You know people are stunned when they hear me say I hate points, I don't use them, I'll never use them, they're not for me. I rather focus on the subconscious elements, such as freedom to fail. Make it safe, they can fail. Let them repeat over and over again. The best thing you can give somebody is another chance and look at the little things. Don't try to be big like EA Sports. Don't try to be something that you're not there yet. You can be, but the subconscious elements are just as powerful as a great video game.

Jay Johnson:

So let me ask this question. I in in one of my effective communications courses. Obviously one of the big components of effective communication is plain language, keeping it simple, et cetera. You know, making sure it's clear, concise. So one of the games I guess it's a game, I never really considered it a game is I have the people you know sitting at their tables and I will put a phrase up on a PowerPoint slide that has like really, really complex language, like a teriosacritical ungate cannot be, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and whatever that language is, and I can't even repeat it right now because it is literally so complex, but it's all of the scientific terms that essentially they have to figure out.

Jay Johnson:

If you lead a horse to water, you can't make it drink, and I sort of I guess I gamify it in saying all right, first team to get the answer to this, raise their hands. And really it's to illustrate the point of communication should be simple or in its simplest form, so that way it's transferred in a more effective way. We can always choose larger words or anything else, but it's really unnecessary. That's more speaker centric than it is per se audience centric. Would that be considered a game? Okay, so that's not a game.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

Help me understand the difference between those two things you have some gaming elements, but you're already out of the gate. Um, you're hurting your. You're hurting your team right out of the gate because you're making them compete against each other. Competition against each other is great, great. I understand. You know nfl. Look at how great teams compete against each other, right? Classroom not so much.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

Think about those sticker charts, right, we have back in the day. When you do great in a spelling test, you know that child would get a sticker, right? Well, what about that kid that didn't get a sticker? Do you think they felt like they belonged in your classroom? Do you think that they felt smart? Do you think that they wanted to be friends with those people?

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

A lot of people, unfortunately, at that point start hunger games, start turning against each other. So, in this sense, you know you want them to work together to find what that term means, because your purpose, overall purpose, is a big one. I love objectives, I love purpose. Why am I doing something that's adult learning, right there? Why am I doing it? You want them to work together as a team, right?

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

Eventually they'll go into groups. They'll eventually have team projects. Well, if they're competing against each other, first team that raises their hand, that other team from now on will subconsciously always look at them and be like, yeah, I was on team A and he was on team B. He won, I didn't. We're not going to work too well. We already have hostility and you know it's a game. Ilth is out, but subconsciously it's always there. What would be better is if your students work together as everybody, figure out what this means together and then, as a group, get to it and give them invisible points or, you know, understand how this will gain them more knowledge, because knowledge is powerful for adults more than a point.

Jay Johnson:

Well, it's so funny you say that because I and this is absolutely fascinating, right Like this is something that I think happens very, very frequently in learning experiences.

Jay Johnson:

But you know, as you were talking about this, I did think about some different instances and organizations where a team in a learning experience gave themselves a name and then carried that name through like the company for the next several months and they identified with that team that they had through that learning experience.

Jay Johnson:

So I can understand that you know sort of lasting impression that it can be like our team won and I love these people versus our team lost and I don't want to be associated with this team anymore. So if I was to say improve, right, because this is the talent forge, it's all about forging new paths in training and development. So if I was to forge my own new path, I would look at this more as a collective. So the actual problem that I'm putting on the board that's the big boss and the team is everybody in that learning experience who's going to try to overcome that boss, that big boss challenge, and collectively, any of the tables that are able to answer that question really wins for the whole team. Is that maybe a little bit better or a little bit more focused in this kind of concept.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

Absolutely yes. Yes, when I was a teacher, I always looked at my students. They were my progress monitor for myself as a teacher and as a teacher overall. We want all our students to be successful. I've never had a student thought that's the guy I'm going to fail this semester. Never thought in my life. That's your purpose. Your students are your progress monitors. You want them to be successful. You want them to get it and, as I said, community practice, bringing in those other life experience, because maybe you separate those two students that need to be together to learn that one thing from each other. They're on the opposite end, but when you bring them together they get that aha moment and then they can defeat the purpose of the statement on the board.

Jay Johnson:

Then they can defeat the purpose of the statement on the board. You know what an incredible tiny little tweak that we can add into our games that can really make an experience different. And when we think about it, I mean our brain is so complex that these small little patterns have a huge impact on future outcomes. Right, when we establish a small sense of belonging, we know that that can actually drive major cultural change. It has an impact with psychological safety. It has an impact with team effectiveness or being open and being able to share information. So if we were to look at other ways that we can sort of bridge this concept of belonging into a learning experience or a learning environment through gaming, do you have any other recommendations that you'd share that would maybe, I guess, elevate that sense of belonging amongst people who are in our training events?

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

I think the first thing, when you know you have a group of students or trainees, whoever you're working with, give them the opportunity, make it kind of the softball team. And when we come into group projects in college or training projects or learning development, those skills that you learn from being a cheerleader or the captain of a softball team, those are great for teamwork. If I was building a team for a training project, I would take a cheerleader all the time, because the moment my team hits that, you know slump off, this isn't going to work, not everything's awesome. That cheerleader has that experience and prior knowledge of to cheer us on, bring us up, and that's what we need to keep going. So I think another thing to bring in some belonging is let your trainees or let your students participants show who they are and give them opportunities to share experiences that we don't always think of.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

You know everybody asks that question of you. Know what's your keys to success. Or you know what do you want to be in the future, five years from now? Well, what were you in the past? Because you have some prior knowledge, some prior activity that you can bring in and it is valuable. So also, you know, bringing that belonging in to show team, because that way they'll show how that they were the cheer captain team and how they worked as a team. So those are great things to bring into.

Jay Johnson:

I think that that also goes back to that identity management, like when somebody's playing Magic the Gathering and all of a sudden they identify with one of the characters or one of the cards and they hold on to it. So you're almost like manifesting that back in by helping them to create an avatar or create an identity within whatever the gaming context. It's really fascinating and, I think, incredibly helpful to our audience to be able to think about some of these things and being able to move their talent, development, games, uh forward. I got one more question for you and I'm going to make this one specific, so I'll give you a moment to think about it.

Jay Johnson:

Let's talk about coaching. Right, so we've talked a little bit about the training environment, where we have a group of people in there, but coaching sometimes can really be a one-to-one focus and it may be a little bit more difficult for us to bring in that concept of okay, how do we bring in belonging or how do we bring in that sense of community learning? Now, we do see a lot of coaching programs In fact, we do a couple of them that are group focused, which I've seen has huge impacts. But if you are in that one-to-one coaching space. How might we be able to deploy some of these different tools that you've talked about in a meaningful way, in sort of a one-to-one environment?

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

Sure, you know, I know we think of belonging. Like I said, right, you have to connect to a person where you need that community to connect to. But you know, what I found fascinating with magic was there was some gamers I'll call them that would come to the game store during tournaments or hobby play and they just sit there and I always thought why do these people keep coming back there? They don't play with other people, they don't participate in tournaments, they're not really doing much with their cards. What is it here that draws them back?

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

And the most fascinating thing I learned from James Paul Gee he's another gamer, if you're interested in learning more about his books is he says that there's this one where it's self to self, and that's when you start looking at a game for yourself and you're playing against yourself and you start connecting to yourself more, you start becoming more metacognitive, you start thinking about your thinking and you start writing notes to yourself and you start gaining information from observations or books.

Dr. Natalie Makulski:

So just because it's a one-on-one, I know people always think, oh, it's isolating, it's isolating, it's bad. I think that's the most time where we are the most creative and the most gain the most knowledge, because we are on our own and we therefore kind of do this weird thing where we kind of you know, I'm not saying see yourself outside of yourself, but you kind of start looking at yourself more and you start identifying yourself more, and that's when you start understanding yourself and your knowledge more, and that's when you start understanding yourself and your knowledge more. So how do you bring those in? You start belonging with yourself, which sounds really weird, but it is possible to do that.

Jay Johnson:

Well, you know, connecting to ourselves, connecting to our own creativity and even connecting to our own performance.

Jay Johnson:

I think about it.

Jay Johnson:

I actually do gamification on myself all the time to keep me focused or to really drive like, all right, I just got to get to X, y or Z today. That is my goal, that is my accomplishment and if I do that, this is my reward for doing that. So I can see how really kind of turning that inward and still sort of creating that sense of belonging or even tying it back to, okay, you're performing or you're gaming by yourself right now, but what does that mean for the larger game of your organization or the larger game of your company, and really helping them sort of align that personal achievement back to what is this going to mean for your team or what is this going to mean for your you know, your culture, et cetera. So I could see how that could really be a powerful way to inspire not only performance but also some of that self-reflection. So, natalie, this has been absolutely fascinating and I want to say thank you for coming onto the show and for sharing some of these knowledges.

Jay Johnson:

You know, when we think about if I'm to wrap this up for those audience members who want to use gaming, really focus on that belonging aspect of it. Think about how those games and we don't have to be an expert in design or anything else, these games can be really simple, but they can be very inspirational make them have a purpose, make them have the opportunity to really facilitate and foster that engagement. I think the tips and tactics that you shared here today will definitely help us forge new pathways in gaming as it relates to talent development. So, audience, thank you for being here and listening to this conversation with Dr Natalie Mikulski of Coeus Creative Group. Thank you so much for the opportunity to engage you in something that is shaping the future of training and talent development. Listen in next time when we come back to the Talent Forge and explore new topics in elevating all of our performance.

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Jay Johnson, CEO and Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements

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