The Talent Forge: Shaping Workforce Behaviors with Jay Johnson

How Self-Compassion Transforms Leadership and Culture with Julie Booksh

• Jay Johnson

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Perfection looks powerful until it breaks a team. We sat down with Julie Booksh—licensed counselor, marriage and family therapist, and leadership coach—to rethink what real strength looks like inside complex systems. Julie’s journey from HR to therapy to organizational consulting frames a core insight: families and workplaces both protect a “normal temperature,” even when it stalls growth. To change the system, you start with the smallest circle you control—yourself—and expand outward with intention.

We dig into the inner critic that many high achievers mistake for motivation. Julie shows how that voice once served safety but now fuels burnout, anxiety, and comparison. Her definition of self-compassion is disarmingly simple and deeply practical: notice how you are, name it, and treat it with kindness before you try to fix anything. That shift separates guilt from shame. Guilt says you did something harmful; repair it. Shame says you are harmful; hide. Leaders who practice compassion can own mistakes without collapsing into self-contempt, which invites their teams to be honest, creative, and accountable.

If this conversation resonates, share it with a leader who carries too much alone, subscribe for more human-centered performance insights, and leave a review to help others discover the show.

Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com

Jay Johnson:

Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge, where together we are shaping workforce behaviors. Today I am joined by Julie Booksh, an expert in the area of self-compassion and leadership. And I'm really excited to dig into this conversation. Julie, welcome to the show.

Julie Booksh:

Thanks, Jay. I'm so happy to be with you.

Jay Johnson:

So why don't we get to know you a little bit better here, Julie? I'd love to know how did you find yourself in this talent development space and really what was driving that passion?

Julie Booksh:

Oh, a lot. Well, first, let me let me go back. So I used to be in the business world. My first right out of undergrad, I was an HR person. And I stayed in HR for years until I went back to school to get my MBA. And then in the middle of that, I switched to my pre-CPA program. Then I went and worked for Big Four CPA firm, hated it. In the middle of all of that, I went through a divorce at a very young age. I was 24. And um, because of that, I started to go to therapy because I was in this relationship that I didn't know if I wanted to be in. And that was a huge deal for the young Catholic girl growing up in the South. And I started going to therapy. And through that, I ended up getting divorced. But once I kind of went into this space of um questioning my entire life, so my relationship was the first thing that got me there. But then it was why do I have this career? Why do I believe the things that I believe in? Like every huge question you could ask, I was asking. And that journey took me to getting my master's degree in marriage and family therapy and counseling. So I'm a licensed counselor and a marriage and family therapist in my therapy career, but that has morphed over the years. You know, marriage and family therapy is actually a systems theory. So it makes it sound like it's just about families and marriage, but it's really about how systems work and how people work in those systems and how the status quo gets maintained and how the status quo gets disrupted. So all of that kind of led me here to um deepening people's awareness of how they're functioning in a system, zooming out and looking at how systems function and how they, you know, impact each other from the top down, from the bottom up, and all that jazz. So that's a little bit of how I uh I tried to make that short, got to where I am now.

Jay Johnson:

So I'm sure that the audience has figured out. Well, I am really excited to talk to you now. So let's, you know, before we jump into the self-compassion and leadership, there's a lot to unpack there. And, you know, I like to look at it uh even at my age, I still haven't figured out exactly what I want to be. There's always new opportunities and everything else. So I love that, I love that how this kind of shifted and into this systems approach. And now obviously, relationships, uh, marriage, et cetera, all of those are systems, the home life systems, et cetera. And the workplace on some level is a system. Is there something, if if I were to ask, is there a relationship or what would you share maybe that would be similar between like the system of relationships in marriage and the system of the workplace?

Julie Booksh:

Well, this I will say that I'm going back to my graduate school. I can see my teacher drawing this on the problem. Um they they they they're similar in the way that they operate, meaning they have a norm. They have a temperature, as my professor would have put it, that they they like to stay at. Even when that temperature is dysfunctional, people are automatically maintaining the norm, even when the norm sucks. Can I say that here?

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, absolutely.

Julie Booksh:

Known as the swearing therapist, I should have, I should have put that in the intro, right? Um, so so people are operating unconsciously often in a way that keeps the status quo, even when it sucks, going, right? So that's the similarity between the two systems. Now, if you want to disrupt the status quo um anywhere, it's about learning how you are contributing to it and how you can begin to change. So if we if we put the status quo in a circle, and I wish I could draw this. And so imagine I have a circle on my hand, and I want the circle to go up here now. I want to change the status quo. Well, that means I have to move my position a little bit. So if I've been operating one way that's contributing unbeknownst to me to the system, I have to start operating in a different way. In a family, that might mean I'm gonna start drawing boundaries where I haven't.

Jay Johnson:

Right.

Julie Booksh:

Now, in a family, the system might not like that. So it's gonna try to pull the person back into the normal circle, the normal circle, the usual status quo circle. In a business, it's a little bit different because there are different ranks and powers, you know, but maybe I don't feel like I have the authority to draw a boundary. And so all of this becomes a situation where I have to really deepen. Is that true that I don't have the authority, or am I just assuming that's true? How does the system it does the system create a safety around that kind of thing? And what's the culture of the system like? So marriages and families and organizations, which are kind of like families in some ways. Yes. So that's one example of how they they're they could be similar.

Jay Johnson:

Well, I love that. That's a great example. And there's again so much wisdom in there. Number one is it sounds to me, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds to me kind of step one is becoming aware of ourself and our role inside of that system. Because I think so often uh the thing that you said is like, how have I contributed to this system? And I think about that of how have I contributed to that system by either doing or not doing something. Maybe uh, you know, when I think of organizational culture, we all have a part to play. And a lot of times it's like it's just the leaders, or it's no, it's just the people underground. But the reality is culture is the sum of all of the behaviors in an organization. And we choose to either normalize particular ones or avoid particular ones because of our choices. So, how do you help somebody raise awareness to like their power, their ability to influence, or even just their own personal stake inside of those systems?

Julie Booksh:

Yeah. Well, first I want to look at the system inside of us, right? That's the one that gets uh ignored the most. And I want to really emphasize this is a this is not about blame, meaning it's not about, oh, what am I doing wrong? Because that's a very shaming model. This is about deepening awareness of what's going on. So if I have a problem in a marriage or a workplace or whatever it is, I want to be able to zoom out and ask myself, you know, okay, what am I seeing? What's the problem? Now I want to zoom in and go, well, what's the system inside of me? Right. So maybe I have an inner dictator, so to speak. A lot of people might call this like an inner critic that says, I shouldn't stand up for myself, I shouldn't draw a boundary because what if I get in trouble? Or what, you know, all the stories that we might have attached to that. So a huge part is the sit, and we don't think about this because it's not something we hear about often, is the internal system going on inside of us. We're made up of multiple parts, right? And a lot, a lot of people, myself included, for a very long time had one part that was kind of in charge some kind of way, and that happens through different traumas. It happens through messages we hear growing up, or whatever the case may be, about how I'm supposed to be, how I'm not supposed to be. So there's this inner, you know, shaming watcher. Oh, don't do this, don't do that. It's not safe to do this, not safe to do that. And sometimes for good reason it wasn't safe for me to do this or that. But now, if I'm in a place in an organization where I'm telling myself I shouldn't draw a boundary, I shouldn't speak up for what I want or whatever, and I am finding that that is not making me happy, then I want to go inside and say, okay, what is it inside of the person first that is telling them they shouldn't? And then I want to challenge that thing. I want to say, why shouldn't I? Is it true that I shouldn't? Is this organization not going to take that? Or is it going to put me in a place of harm? There's all these, there are all of these places we operate from that we don't ever challenge.

unknown:

Yeah.

Julie Booksh:

And so I want to help people challenge, okay, is this true first? And okay, well, no, it's not true, but I still feel terrified to do it. All right, well, now it's stuff like that. So the inner system that's going on inside of us all the time is one that is often overlooked, especially, I shouldn't say especially in organizations, especially everywhere. Um, but we don't think of ourselves as a system. We don't think that there's a whole system going on inside of us of different voices that we've internalized. And um, this is where the self-compassion part comes in, that we don't we have to develop many of us, a compassionate part of us, because so many of us were taught to um grow through self-criticism.

Jay Johnson:

You know, and I love this because I as you're talking through this, and you know, one of the things that I study is like the neurobiological patterns of behavior, right? So something occurs long, long time ago, our hippocampus starts going, ah, that was scary, we don't want that again. And then all of a sudden, anytime that that you know potential risk is out there, a pattern of behavior starts playing. And if we're thinking about shifting behaviors in the workplace, we really do need to be thinking about what are those underlying patterns? Where do they show up? And what's driving those? So the the the fact that we're the fact that what you're saying is raising that awareness to where might this be coming from? And then really digging in on that question of is this actually serving me? Is this is this creating the conditions for my success? Is this creating the conditions for conflict? Is it creating the conditions for my anxiety and my burnout? Is it you know all those voices inside? Yeah.

Julie Booksh:

All of that, you know, my anxiety, my burnout. We we live in a culture that looks at the at those things as bad. Like if I'm feeling anxious, if I'm feeling burnt out, it must be because I'm doing something wrong, right? Or I haven't healed enough, or all the other bullshit that gets thrown at us that makes it always feel speaking of system. If I could really zoom out and look at our cultural system, I would define it like this it's a system that throws things at us that says, do this, this, and this and this, and you will be well. You will be successful, you will have money, you will be in the right shape, you you know, all the all the things. You will have the right amount of energy, you won't be tired, all this stuff. Well, that is a very rigid definition of what it means to be well. Okay, so what happens is the system throws all these things at us and says, do these things, you'll be well. And if you aren't well, it's because you must be doing something wrong. You must be procrastinating, you must not be setting boundaries, you must be doing this or not doing that. Instead of questioning the whole system, it's built on this shaming thing of this is my fault. There's something else I need to do, there's something I'm not doing enough of. And this is why self-compassion is such a huge thing for me in my work, because I see this kind of shaming thing everywhere. Um, it so, so that's a system that needs to be looked at too. If I am burnt out, is it because I'm doing something wrong? No. If I'm feeling anxious, instead of treating that with a lot of care and compassion, there's a lot of, oh, we'll do this to fix it. Like it's something wrong in the first place, when most people have really good reasons to be anxious.

Jay Johnson:

Right. Well, you know, when I think of burnout, burnout's simply an early warning system telling you something worse is coming if you don't take action. And I I agree with you. I hear that language of we need to get rid of burnout or you know, nip burnout out. And when when we're talking about burnout, we're like, actually, burnout's less about how much work you're doing. It's usually more about the resentment that you feel, either from an isolation standpoint, a value standpoint, or anything else. So I really want to dig into this self-compassion because number one is I would say I don't know that it's it's well defined for people. So maybe if I could start there, what does self-compassion look like from Julie's perspective?

Julie Booksh:

Well, first of all, I have to say the question makes me want to close my eyes and slow down just hearing it. And and and for me, that's kind of part of what it is for me. Now it's going to land on everybody differently, but to define it, I would say that it means number one, being aware of how I am, and then two, acknowledging it. And then three, I would say it would be treating it with kindness instead of how do I fix it? So kind of like I always use the uh the analogy of if I could talk to myself the way I talk to my puppy, then I am at the self-compassion. I'm at I've I've I've really done a lot of good work, right? Or for some people it might be a baby the way I would talk to a baby, or even a good friend. The way we meet ourselves when we're struggling, is how I define self-compassion. And a compassionate stance, a compassionate stance says this, you know, say say say I'm struggling with something, I'm afraid of something, whatever, name anything is to acknowledge that one, I'm I'm afraid, I feel afraid. So I'm acknowledging how I'm doing, how I am, and I'm not meeting that with a bunch of, oh, I need to fix this, blah, blah, blah. I'm saying, I almost say, I tell people, when I can say to myself, oh, sweetheart, you're feeling sad or angry or scared. And it's hard. It's hard to feel that. To acknowledge, like I'm having a moment of struggle. That is compassion. To acknowledge it, and to say, it's okay to it's okay to struggle. You're not the only one in the world that struggles by any means. And that this is hard. It's hard to feel this.

Jay Johnson:

So to Okay, go ahead. I was gonna ask a question, and and I and I'm loving this. I I really like I really like how you framed that because I I'm thinking about this, and and I'll I'll just share a little bit of my background. I was a junior hockey player, I was pretty competitive, then I went into debate, then I went into mixed martial arts. It was always, you know, forward, forward, forward, fight, fight, fight. It was no flight, there was no feint or anything else. And, you know, and this is not any criticism of my family, but growing up, it was just like uh if I screwed something up, it was like, come on, get your head in the game, do better, you're better than this, move forward. And it was just, it was, it was and and I found that to be mostly motivating. There's definitely points and times when I've had to pull back from that and be like, all right, slow down, stop, stop beating yourself up on this. But uh, how how common is it for somebody to kind of walk through that space of being like, oh Jay, you're better than this. Come on, get your get your shit together. Or you know, something of that nature where it's just like really kind of, you know.

Julie Booksh:

Oh, it's so common, Jay. This is the this is the so what you're talking about is like the perfect example. I was also an athlete. I played volleyball and softball, and um very competitive. I've I'm still competitive if I've if I I haven't played a sport in a long time. I'm looking to get into one, but um, I'm I'm very competitive, and that has been mostly a really good thing. Um but when we internalize a voice and it's the only voice and that doesn't let up, it becomes like an inner criticism. It's some, you know, we're never enough, we're never doing enough, we're never performing at the right level. It is so common. This is why I think one of my most popular classes I teach is how to tame your inner critic because we don't, and again, it's it's not only your individual story, we live in a society that is about the grind and powering through, and all you know, strength and strength's definition is only one definition, and vulnerability is not strong, you know. We're seeing this change, yeah, but most of us grew up in a you know, be strong, power through, don't show your emotions, it's weak to cry, all of these things. So it's extreme. I have never met a person um that I that I don't hear an inner critic in. I've never taught a class where the topic of an inner critic or a pressure maker for different people, it has different nuances. Um I've never I've never been in a class, even when the topic wasn't inner criticism, where this does doesn't come up.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And I'm even I and as my brain starts to to go in all the different directions. I'm thinking of those people that are out there that suffer from severe imposter syndrome, like, I don't belong here, or you know, the inner voice going, you don't belong here. What are you doing? Get out of this space. I've experienced that once or twice.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, once or twice.

Jay Johnson:

Once or twice. And you know, that that inner critic of saying, Well, you know, what about the and and maybe let's take this one because I see this very often in work cultures, the comparison trap. You've got one manager who's looking at another manager and saying, Oh, I should be at that level, or I should be doing this, or gosh, why am I not, you know, keeping up with this person? And there's always this sort of like comparison between ourselves and somebody else in the workplace. So these are all examples of that inner critic that you're speaking to. How does how does self-compassion like how does that work? How does that function to start removing sort of the impetus behind that inner critic?

Julie Booksh:

Yeah. Well, first I have to tell you that the whole time you were kind of explaining the question, I kept thinking of myself when I was younger saying, I'm not my sister, I'm not my sister. So for some of us, it goes way back, the comparison thing. And it doesn't even necessarily like I can honestly say, I don't, my parents must have been telling me something that I was responding to, but I could I can't say that they were like comparing me all the time, but it's in the water of our culture. So um, self-compassion. So the so inner criticism, there are a few different ways uh, because we don't want to have a shame around inner criticism either. Like, how can you not have an inner critic if you grew up in this country? So um, right. So there are a few phases of it. Like one is learning to recognize it, because so many of us think that voice is just like the normal voice, that it's a strong voice, and we don't realize the impact it's having on us emotionally, physically, spiritually. Um, so one is recognizing it, two is starting to talk back to it and question it, like I was talking about before. And the third piece for me, but it's not in this order, is the self-compassion part because I could just take the first two out for a minute. And if I wanted to just only focus on the third one, what it does is it starts to create a voice inside of us that's not just the pressure maker, pusher, inner critic. So many of us have that voice as the dominant voice, and all of these other parts of us don't get airtime, so to speak. Um, they don't get to push back and say, I'm tired, because the voice is like, well, it has a reason you shouldn't be, or so what? You're supposed to be tired if you're gonna be successful or whatever. So the self-compassion piece starts to create space, even if it's 30 seconds a day. It's 30 seconds more than what most people have, where I can let myself slow down and check in with how I'm feeling, and honoring how I'm feeling, saying it's okay how I'm feeling, how I'm feeling is okay. It might be difficult, it's okay that it's difficult, and so it's creating space and a uh how would I say a voice that can hold I'm gonna say tension for right now without having to fix it, without having to improve. It's a very loving stance. And I think most of us are caught in the stance of go, go, go, go, go, go, go, and doing, doing, doing, performing, performing, performing. And and part of that is wonderful. Like we want to do all these things, we have all these ideas, or and it's great. But when other parts of us and our body is one of the first places that might say, ouch, you know, like this hurts, ouch, why? So self-compassion starts to build that space in us that a lot of us don't have, because most of us were never really taught it.

Jay Johnson:

Let's talk about shame for just a second. Because, you know, when we think about, so a big part of a big part of what I like to study is like, okay, well, what was the adaptive purpose of these emotions, right? Like if we think about evolutionary biology, the things that we have with us served us over the course of our time on this planet. So I know that shame, I mean, shame was actually one of the social cues that said, hey, you did something wrong. You feel shame for it. So that way you don't do that something wrong again. And it creates the, you know, a better social structure when you're when you actually have some level of shame. But it seems to me that we often sort of like overdo it with shame. So there's this balance of where it can be adaptive and it can also be maladaptive. And it seems to me that a lot of shame or maladaptive shame, overuse of it tends to create some levels of rumination, or we just kind of dig back into it or keep reliving it and over and over and over again.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Jay Johnson:

If I was to ask, and and I'm not asking you to quantify or anything else, but what were your what are your thoughts when it comes to okay? So there's there is some level of shame that can be a good thing.

Julie Booksh:

I'm gonna push back on that. Okay, I'm gonna differentiate. I'm gonna say no, there isn't, but I'm gonna differentiate this. I think what you are talking about is guilt, and to me, guilt and shame are two different things. Okay, okay, so I think what you were describing for me more falls under the guilt category. Shame is a different beast. Um, shame is a you're not good enough, you're not worthy, you're a bad. Not not you did something bad, right? Um, you are bad, you are worthless, you are not worthy. That's shame.

Jay Johnson:

So more of the core, yeah. Like I as an individual, not my behavior was bad, but right I as an individual are bad.

Julie Booksh:

All right, I can I can definitely I can see I think there needs to be some separation between that because when because what you're saying is correct, like it's it's if I do something and it harms another person, it's a healthy thing to be to to feel a little bad about that or a lot bad about that. But what self-compassion helps you do is it helps you say, Yes, that that it's difficult to hurt somebody else, but it doesn't make you bad. It's self-compassion helps you learn how to be accountable without being awful, you know. So I can be accountable for my behavior, I can be accountable for my actions, and all of that's really important. Shame actually prevents people from being accountable because it just brings them straight into your piece of shit.

Jay Johnson:

Sure. And then the defense mechanisms come up and the pattern.

Julie Booksh:

And there's no ability to be accountable because I'm just such in this terrible place that I'm just trying to fight feeling like total shit.

Jay Johnson:

So from the from the shame versus guilt perspective, and and when we and I, you know, I like I like the separation of those two things because when if I'm thinking about like the individual aspect of it, now uh let's say that I were to take a perspective of uh I am not, and and let's let's play with this. So I'm gonna nuance this just a little bit for us. Please, I am a terrible musician. You give me a guitar, and I am gonna screw it up. I am awful, I am, I am bad. Okay. Now, where does that fall in terms of like this self-criticism, self-loathing? Not it's obviously not shame. I can I can honestly tell you you don't want me playing a guitar in one of your and you're smiling when you tell me, right?

Speaker 1:

That's part of what tells you it's not shame.

Jay Johnson:

It's just like it's just yeah. So how do we how do we parcel this out? Because I think that there are some people that'll be like, okay, well, if I'm not, you know, if I'm not necessarily going to feel shame, does that mean that I'm not recognizing when I do bad things or when I'm not capable of something? Or where does this come into like the questions? I guess really what I'm getting down to is where does it come into the question of ego?

Julie Booksh:

Hmm. Okay, well, ego, man, Jay, we need three hours for these questions. Oh, okay, so ego gets a bad rap. And I I understand why. When we're in our ego and we're only in our ego, and we have no connection to our deeper self that knows that not everything is about ego and feeling, you know, safe, meaning, you know, I'm never wrong, or I don't take risks, or whatever. So if I am too connected or overly connected with my ego, and I'm only in my ego, and I can't ever feel bad because then I lose my sense of importance or not even support not even importance, my sense of worth. Right. Then I'm totally wrapped up in my ego and only my ego, where I am only um able to value myself through my level of perfection, really. So it's a trap, right? Now I think where ego gets a bad rap is our ego needs to be in conversation with our deeper self. The goal is not, oh, let's get get it rid of the ego. I mean, ego is not bad, it's part of what drives us. But we want it to be, remember, I was talking about the different parts of us and like inner diversity, being aware that we're made of multiple parts. And we want to build these parts in us, like the self compassionate part, the inner healer, so to speak. The inner therapist. So you want the ego to be able to communicate and be in relationship with the deeper self that knows if I screwed up, it doesn't mean I'm a terrible person, it means I'm human.

Speaker 1:

Love that.

Julie Booksh:

That's what it means. It means I'm human. I don't know a soul who has not hurt another person.

Jay Johnson:

Right? So let's take this to that leadership side now, because I think that there are a lot of leaders out there that expect themselves to know everything, expect themselves to make every right decision, expect and it honestly, like whether you're in a leadership title where there is a lot of stress, maybe there's high stakes, maybe there's risks. But I mean, most people I still think also kind of expect themselves to, you know, expect they do feel shame when, oh, I don't know, or the ability to admit I don't know, or I can't do that, or anything else like that. But for leaders, we know that there's usually consequences to their decisions. Consequences not just for themselves, but for a company, for their teams, for their employees, for whomever it might be. Um, we know that a lot of times leadership can be really, really lonely where you feel like you're only the only person that's managing whatever the issue, risk, or you know, uh change management that's coming, etc. So, from a leadership perspective, how can we maybe help them to move a little bit more towards that self-compassion, that ability to open up and say, okay, um, you know, I need help.

Julie Booksh:

Yeah. Well, first of all, if if you're trying to move in that direction, um, and you know you haven't really lived in that direction, number one, understand it's going to feel uncomfortable. It's going to feel vulnerable and it's going to feel risky. And so I want to have a lot of compassion around those feelings. Like it's okay that this feels risky. It's hard, it's uncomfortable. I don't like it. But I I'm I'm here. I it's almost like you're witnessing yourself with compassion instead of witnessing yourself with shame. I am acknowledging this, this is hard. I'm here. We've got this. It's like you're creating a partnership with your inner compassion part. So one, I want to frame it like it's gonna feel uncomfortable. That's okay. That's okay. Two, I also I want to say, as a leader, if we just stay on the intellectual side with self-compassion, self-compassion helps leaders create a more psychologically safe environment because they can say, I don't know. They can make mistakes and they know it doesn't mean they're a bad leader, because they have a compassionate part that says, uh, I screwed up and I'm not a piece of shit. I'm human. I screwed up and I'm human. And what it does when a leader can say, I don't know, let's take a breath, let's think about this, let's not have to know for a minute. Or when they can say, I screwed up and I want to make sure people know that I've owned that. It makes other people feel safer to do the same thing, to to own, I screwed up. So it creates an environment where perfection isn't the goal, and it makes it safe when perfection doesn't happen. And it actually makes people more creative in that kind of environment. So self-compassion as the leader. When I when I'm a leader, and because to me, everybody's a leader. Now I totally recognize what you're saying. People in certain leadership positions, it's lonely at the top, there's a larger level of responsibility. But as a leader, when I can say, wow, I'm feeling nervous about this, let me just take a breath, um that ripples out where people can say, Oh, like it's okay to feel a little nervous, and I, you know, I'm good. I can feel nervous and still do whatever I need to do. So it really is a huge piece. But if if I am not compassionate toward myself as a leader when I screw up, and people know that, then that's the culture I'm creating. That when people screw up, I'm supposed to be really mean to myself and hard on myself. And self-compassion does not mean that I'm not accountable. It's actually the thing that helps me be more accountable because I can say I'm human, I screwed up. It doesn't mean I'm bad.

Jay Johnson:

Right. And it probably reduces the amount of resistance that we have just internally for our for acknowledging andor taking ownership on something.

Julie Booksh:

Exactly.

Jay Johnson:

You know, from that perspective, when we think about, you know, what what's created these patterns? And I I look back and I'll just use my own personal example, but I do know for a long time, and and and I'm gonna admit, what created this pattern too is is not my team, but it was me. But at one point in time, there was an element where like it was everybody was coming to me for permission or coming to me for this and that. And it was this was on me 100%. And I'm gonna I'm gonna accept that ownership and responsibility. But I can see how leaders sometimes start to get into that space of thinking, well, you know, the team's counting on me, everyone's counting on me, and I've made a mistake.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Jay Johnson:

So when we're in that cycle, let's let's talk pre-making the mistake, and we feel already that the team is just counting on me. Help us walk through how can we as a leader maybe fix that. And I don't mean fix that as it has to go away or anything else, but how can we maybe soften that? Because when the mistake occurs, we don't want to be that we don't want to be worrying about it then. So let's say before the mistake happens or whatever the you know the the incidents are that creates the conditions, we're feeling like the whole team relies on us. How do we start navigating that?

Julie Booksh:

Okay, so you're feeling pressure, is what I'm saying. Okay, I'm feeling all this pressure. Oh, that's a beautiful example. Oh, that's really a beautiful example. And I and this is what I'm perfect example of like just ways when I can start to create the habit of checking in with myself, right? Because I'm in the story of everybody's counting on me. I have to, I am I'm feeling so the the first part is I'm feeling stressed out usually. I'm feeling stressed out. Okay, well, that's a huge descriptor. Tell me more about I'm feeling all this pressure, and I want to stop, and I I want to say, wow, I'm feeling all this pressure. Acknowledge how I'm feeling. One that part alone is huge because I'm inside myself now. I'm not just this machine that's pushing myself forward, I'm noticing me. I feel all this pressure. Okay.

Jay Johnson:

As you were getting me to this step one, too, like I'm putting myself because I've put a lot of pressure on myself in the past in different instances. So as you were saying that, I started to put myself into that, and then I went back to your original question of like, is this because somebody else is putting the pressure on me, or is it me putting the pressure on myself? If I went to my team and said, Hey, do you expect me to know everything, do everything, be everything, live everything? Would they say, Yeah, Jay, I do? No, they wouldn't, you know.

Julie Booksh:

Right, you know, it's an important distinction. Like, and then this is what I'm saying. If we slow down and just get a little curious, yeah, hey, is this pressure coming from outside, or is the pressure coming from inside? And people's bodies, I do a lot with body listening to our bodies will often because some people will say I have a pressure headache. And I will say, Does the pressure feel like it's coming from outside, or does the pressure feel like it's pushing in, pushing out from inside? The body will often mirror. So the first part is acknowledging, like I feel this pressure and and being compassionate. Of course, I feel pressure. Like some people will feel pressure and they think they're wrong to feel pressure. There's no wrong feeling. What you're feeling is smart. Your feelings are smart. So I'm feeling this pressure. Man, so much pressure. It's it's hard to feel all of this pressure. It takes the pressure down. And that's not the goal when I'm doing it. The goal is caring for myself in a way that actually sees me and doesn't just look at me as a machine that has to jump through all these hoops for everything and everyone. So the self-compassion, I'm feeling pressure. Okay, it's okay. Of course, you're feeling pressure. You're in charge of this massive organization, or you're in charge of this conflict, or you cause this conflict, whatever it might be. Um now I'm thinking of marriage and family again in my own life, and the pressure I put on my husband, or whatever. Um, but acknowledging how I'm feeling and and again reminding myself that of course I'm feeling this. I I'm human, I'm supposed to feel things. Yeah, a lot of different things, not just all the good things.

Jay Johnson:

Where did we as a species start to get into repression? Like, where did that come from? Why do we try to push these feelings down? Because and I will tell you, yes, I came from a family where it's like, suck it up, buttercup, get back out there, put it away, and don't you worry about it. So I am definitely a product of that environment. But with that being said, like what was the adaptive and and I don't know that I'm asking you to truly answer this question, but uh, what's your thoughts on that? Like, where did this become the adaptive response, which is completely maladaptive to our actual like happiness, joy, or expression of real emotion?

Julie Booksh:

Yeah, I I have two answers. One, I'm gonna answer, and I don't have the answer, like you said. I first want to talk personally for me, and again, this is an incomplete answer, but it's a start. I grew up in strict religion, and strict religion. This is I think why I'm so passionate about self-compassion. I I never learned how to be kind to myself or love myself. That was all for other people. Be kind to other people, love other people, meanwhile, keep track of your sins and go report them, you know. Okay, so there's not a lot of compassion in that. So I grew up in a strict religion where it was always about staying in line, following the rules. And if you veered from the rules, you had to go report yourself to a priest and you know, get absolved and all of these things. So, I mean, we're laughing about it, and it's great to laugh about it, but it can create an inner monster. Yeah, like you know, God is always watching you, making sure you're choosing right or choosing wrong, and your eternal um life depends on your choices, whether you end up in fire or in clouds. Okay, so there's a real for me now. Lots of people are religious and don't have that, but in the way, but lots of people do. Um so that is an inner critic that's almost guised as God. Like, how do you challenge that? So for some people, bad religion is one place, and the other thing I want to share is I remember, and I hope I'm getting this right. Um, the author Susan Kane. I don't know if you've heard of her, but she um her first book, I think it was her first book, was called Quiet. And it was all about introverts in the workplace. And in in the book, as she's kind of laying out some historical things, she talks about the Dale Carnegie era era and how it became a culture of personality, like you were this persona, and how at the same time anxiety meds went up in men because they had to put on this show. Now it's hard for me to say that men didn't have anxiety before that, but this sales culture of be this charismatic person that um I don't think gets on a stage and cries or shows their vulnerabilities. Uh, there was also an uptick where people lost they were about being a personality, not a person. And I don't know that that's where it started because I think it probably started long before that. For me, it started like if I look at the history of religion, I can see some of it in certain religions, right? Um, so I don't know the answer, but those are the first things that pop in my head when you ask the question. Well, and it's fascinating.

Jay Johnson:

Uh that I I love the answers because I I started to think about that too, and it's almost like this like when we have a prescriptive, almost um, this is how you're supposed to be, right? Whether that's godly, whether that is this is the macho, you know. Uh and I was thinking like uh as you were talking about, I was thinking like the Sean Connery of the 1970s or 80s, this is what a man is, and you know those sort of like almost like lofty, over high, overly high expectations, and it comes down to again a little bit of the comparison trap, like oh, I'm not like that. Why I gotta just toughen up or whatever, and then that's insert feminism, right?

Julie Booksh:

So women are trying to get more uh access to certain positions, and they have to act that way, yeah. Right. So they're playing in a masculine world. I don't mean male, although in this case that also applies, but like the way if I'm going to be in this world and I'm gonna be able to compete and get to the levels that I want to get to, that that's the model of how to do it. I mean, look at the difference, like even like look at politics. Like, you know, I remember after Hurricane Katrina, um, I I'm from New Orleans, um, the governor at the time, uh Blanco, Kathleen Blanco, she cried at the podium at one of the press conferences after Hurricane Katrina.

Jay Johnson:

Seems like an appropriate response.

Julie Booksh:

Thank you. And people were not having it. And I'm like, our city is destroyed. Like, how are we? I mean, everybody's crying, everybody's all always also trying to put things back together and happy as a community to be together and mourning the loss of life and all kinds of things. How do you not cry?

Jay Johnson:

And but as a governor, she shouldn't have cried, was the so there's this mentality that as an title all of a sudden just revokes or you know, c takes away any emotional capacity that you're exactly, and quite frankly, I think that I think if some of the politicians cried a little bit more or actually demonstrated some of their emotional self-compassion, we might not be uh as divided as we are as a country, yeah.

Julie Booksh:

Yes, exactly. If we could see each other's humanity, yeah, right, and here we are back to self-compassion. But we were taught somehow, and I don't know where, Jay, but somewhere we were taught like this is what strength is supposed to look like, this is what leadership is supposed to look like, and all of it just kept taking being human out of it. And there's no psychological safety in that for the environment, right? So in organizations, people feel safer. I I tell my mentor, so one time she forgot like our appointment or something, and we get on the phone, she's like, Oh, I had it the wrong thing. And I just smiled, and she's like, What are you smiling at? I'm like, I love it when you screw up because it just makes me feel so much more comfortable.

Jay Johnson:

So I I love this, and you know, this is this is one of those things, and I think that uh with your permission, I'd like to invite you back at some point in time so we can talk a little bit more about psychological safety. I know we really kind of dug in on the self-compassion side. Um, you know, because these things are linked, and these things have an impact on us as individuals and also these systems, whether that system's family, whether that system's culture, whether that system is, you know, even just our social political environment out there. Is there any kind of final thoughts that you would leave? I know that we've talked a lot about a lot, you know, being aware of it, sitting with it, being able to take and these are those takeaways for the audience, you know, take it, you know, sitting with it, being aware of it, having some of that, hey, I'm human and I have a right to feel these ways, you know, recognizing that we're all feeling this way, whether whether people are showing it or not, unless they're a complete psychopath, they're probably feeling, you know, very, very similar things.

Julie Booksh:

I don't know anyone who isn't struggling in some way.

Jay Johnson:

Right, right. Yeah.

Julie Booksh:

Uh my my I would say two things. One is that self-compassion for me is the foundation of psychological safety.

unknown:

Yeah.

Julie Booksh:

First inside of myself, but then inside of if I'm a leader or the leader of a family or whatever it is. Um so it can't just be when when I listened and learned and learned from researchers on self-compassion, they always say when they go into companies and teach about it, the employees always want to know are the managers gonna get this class too? Because they the managers are the ones who set the tone. They're the ones that have the rank and the power to set the tone for the psychological safety. So you can't just say, Oh, I want my my team to know they don't have to be perfect, but then I'm walking around not able to let myself make mistakes or whatever. So that's like an incongruent message. So self-compassion, even in leadership, is the foundation of psychological safety. And I forgot the second thing that I was gonna say, Jay, but here we are.

Jay Johnson:

Well, here, I'll ask, I'll ask the question for the second thing. If our audience wanted to get in touch with you, Julie, and to talk through some of these issues, how would they reach out to you?

Julie Booksh:

My website is my name, juliebooks.com. And I am on Instagram and I'm on Facebook, but through my website is probably the best way to reach out to me. And I want to mention, since we talked about it, I do have a free PDF on my website about the inner critic and how to tame the inner critic that talks about what you and I talked about, um, how to deal with that. And there is a self-competition, self-compassion piece of that in that document. So if anybody wants that, please help yourself.

Jay Johnson:

Amazing. And we'll make sure that that link is in the show notes so you can find it, audience. Julie, I just want to say this has been an awesome conversation. A little bit longer of an episode, but I I think that we could have probably, you're right, gone for another two to three hours on these topics.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Jay Johnson:

So I just want to say thank you so much for for joining me today to starting this conversation and for sharing your your wisdom and insights in these areas. Really appreciate that.

Julie Booksh:

Thank you, Jay. I agree. It has been a wonderful conversation, and I love your your the depth of your questions. So thank you.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, my pleasure. And uh, we'll definitely be looking to have you back and we can further this and dig a little deeper on that psychological safety. So thank you again, and uh thank you to the audience for tuning into this episode of the Talent Forge, where together we are shaping the future of workforce behaviors.

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Jay Johnson, CEO and Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements

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